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Is the madness ever going to end?

unixsheikh.com

11–20 of 629 posts

Re: Is the madness ever going to end?

#11
You have a misspelling in your second sentence.

You also seemed to be focused on only web development. I would argue that "IT people" are not limited to web development -- and that you're overlooking the entire maker movement (including Raspberry Pi's and Arduinos), the breathtaking development going on with self-driving cars, and the development still taking place with AI.

But as always -- follow the money. Old school engineering shops got their money from the military (the internet is thanks to DARPA, after all). Web 1.0 got it's money from selling physical goods. Web 2.0 got it's money from venture capital and digital goods. What are we selling now?

Re: Is the madness ever going to end?

#12
Thank you for articulating this better than I could have. We had HTTPD...Then Apache2, then nginx...and a guy here is messing with GPU visualization and introduced me to caddy...which is better, for reasons. And just today I saw gunicorn (which I thought was gun-i-corn for a moment) and I see it's been around for YEARS.

And I feel old. It used to be you secured a system when you knew every single thing that was running on it. Those days are long looooong gone.

And today, I had to go find Visual Studio 2019 because hashcat needs CUDA needs VS19 and Microsoft REALLY wants you to use VS22, but CUDA doesn't support it.

And so it goes.

Re: Is the madness ever going to end?

#13
> In the past IT people, whether we're talking about programmers or something else, where very clever people. People with a high level of intelligence that took serious pride in doing things in a meaningful and pragmatic way.

Uh, no, IT people were idiots decades ago too. I was one of those idiots. I've watched myself become less of an idiot, over a very long period of time, because I can see my old self in other people today. But even that is a fallacy - I'm not actually less of an idiot, I just see my old idiocy and assume because I've seen it that I'm smarter now.

I find the "impostor syndrome" meme pretty funny. Tech people seem to get impostor syndrome when their egos develop a crack and they see their own lack of understanding, and worry somebody else will see it too. But then a tech person with a stronger ego convinces them that it's all fine, because actually we're all either idiots or geniuses and nobody can tell the difference.

The tech industry is basically at the same level of advancement as people who built small buildings in the medieval period. Large enough that you need an experienced craftsman to put it together, but small enough that they're not using geometry or doing the math necessary to safely build large structures. The idiocy will continue until society forces this industry to be a real regulated engineering discipline.

Re: Is the madness ever going to end?

#15
> and while we're add it

I hole-hardedly agree, but allow me to play doubles advocate here for a moment. For all intensive purposes I think you are wrong. In an age where false morals are a diamond dozen, true virtues are a blessing in the skies...

Re: Is the madness ever going to end?

#17
> Programming is engineering

Is it?

Genuine question that I've been asking myself for the past several years: In what senses is software engineering actually an engineering discipline?

If you make a project trade-off for the sake of code maintainability, is that based on empirically tested knowledge or following a design pattern guided by an artisan's intuition about how code will be interpreted?

Re: Is the madness ever going to end?

#18
It will end when people like the author drop their victim mentality and start putting their own ideas into practice. It seems that this person is content with yelling on the sidelines about how good and efficient things used to be.

Meanwhile, the shitty tech is winning. According to this author, bad code and bad tools and bad frameworks are reigning supreme over real engineering. Why?

"The situation is really bad for the industry." Also, why?

People with the mentality like the author don't actually want to build things. They just want to sit and complain. Their sense of righteousness and victim mentality gives them more pleasure and validation than actually engaging with the "modern" tech world.

Some other articles by the same:

- "Using a framework can make you stupid!"

- "So-called modern web developers are the culprits"

- "One sure way to determine if you are stupid"

- "SQLite the only database you will ever need in most cases"

- "No, your website is not a web app even if you call it so"

Re: Is the madness ever going to end?

#19
I believe we, as an industry, are driving towards frameworks that can be operated with story-like analogies describing what needs to be done with no technology knowledge at all. The core computer scientists creating such a framework create it with entry level non-developers as the "end-users" in mind. Such a framework is the holy grail of software development because it will enable any Joe with any software idea to hire anyones to make "their dream". The "no code" movement is an early manifestation of this trend. BTW, the VFX world is ahead in this tread, creating production frameworks requiring no 3D graphics technical knowledge at all...

Re: Is the madness ever going to end?

#20
I mean, I don’t necessarily disagree with the main point, but this feels like a short argument with straw-men and poor faith.

Personally, I think another commenter got it right pointing to commoditization (interestingly I find the commoditization of computing in general has greatly decreased my interest in it, but that’s a me problem), though I always find the ire towards web dev as the root of all evil to be a little too strong. There’s a lot of bullshit, but I see bullshit in plenty of other domains as well. Web development just has the status of being the largest platform at the time.

Also over abstracting is bad, so is over/pre-optimization and frameworks can add a ton of unnecessary overhead, but y’know, something about hammers. That being said, I’d rather inherit an overcomplicated Laravel application from someone that an overcomplicated raw-PHP monolith.

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