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U.S. surgeons transplant pig heart into human patient

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Re: U.S. surgeons transplant pig heart into human patient

#371
post #61

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Pigs are really common in biomedical testing. They are physically a similar size and weight to humans. They also reach maturity in about 6 months. Much cheaper to raise than primates, and more likely to get approval for testing. My friends in biomed grad school named one of theirs cyber pig because it has about 30 different experiments ran on it before it was killed, and afterwards it was portioned out for further te…

Weird how this is said without a shred of sympathy or concern for an intelligent, helpless creature. Weirder how it can be said without a sympathetic or concerned response. I hope we can someday move beyond seeing animals as a mere resource.

If only this pig had had the opportunity to live in the wild where it could cannibalize it's young and destroy ecosystems.

Re: U.S. surgeons transplant pig heart into human patient

#372

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Imagine, God is calling me up to Heaven because it's my time, and this machine holds me down here on earth! This logic only seems to work if you believe the pacemaker is more powerful than your god’s will.

God's will is not so forceful as to supernaturally reach into the world and kill someone clinging to life, even if by evil means. If it were, and He reached down and destroyed the device every single time, you'd be likely to rebel all the more, calling Him a tyrant! No, this monk was truly no fool, he must have been a wise, simple old man who lived his life humbly doing his best to love those around him.

What do you mean by “not so forceful”?

If you mean that it is literally too weak to accomplish this, then this doesn’t fit typical conceptions of deities.

If you mean that it’s more of a preference than something he is insisting upon, then if a person chooses to extend their lifespan it isn’t going against your god’s will.

Is there another meaning I’m missing?

Re: U.S. surgeons transplant pig heart into human patient

#373

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Weird how this is said without a shred of sympathy or concern for an intelligent, helpless creature. Weirder how it can be said without a sympathetic or concerned response. I hope we can someday move beyond seeing animals as a mere resource.

It's not weird at all. Biologically speaking, we are designed to eat meat. Our bodies produce all of the enzymes, such as protease and lipase, necessary for the breakdown and absorption of meat. The weird thing is how we developed sympathy and concern for such things. Human civilizations' current abundance of resources allows us the luxury to develop moral "philosophies" and become "vegetarians" effectively masking o…

Human beings are also designed for aggression towards each other, yet we generally try to control those parts of our 'savage nature' in modern society.

Torturing defenseless animals is not an inescapable facet of human nature. It's something we choose to do and be OK with.

Re: U.S. surgeons transplant pig heart into human patient

#375

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Weird how this is said without a shred of sympathy or concern for an intelligent, helpless creature. Weirder how it can be said without a sympathetic or concerned response. I hope we can someday move beyond seeing animals as a mere resource.

It's not weird at all. Biologically speaking, we are designed to eat meat. Our bodies produce all of the enzymes, such as protease and lipase, necessary for the breakdown and absorption of meat. The weird thing is how we developed sympathy and concern for such things. Human civilizations' current abundance of resources allows us the luxury to develop moral "philosophies" and become "vegetarians" effectively masking o…

No, humans are omnivores, not carnivores. Our bodies are designed to function on a wide variety of food including fresh produce. To each their own, but consuming meat is a choice, not a necessity.

Re: U.S. surgeons transplant pig heart into human patient

#376
post #351

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't see any distinction at all. Can you elaborate? (I'm an omnivore that's relatively OK with animal testing, fwiw)

The distinction between wild animals and reared ones is that they existed independently of humans, where as animals reared by humans would not have existed otherwise. I hold the same distinction to fishing - i do not like wild fish, but farmed fishes (note: farmed, not fishes caught from the wild, then fattened) are ok (esp. in an enclosed, hydroponic system). Unfortunately, most "farmed" fishes refer to caught fish…

> Anything that humans create, live or dead, is fair game to be used for any purpose deemed desirable by the creator.

Does that same distinction apply to human children?

The objection to animal testing or consumption isn't about the source of the animals, it's about the ethical treatment of them. The potential suffering/emotional responses from the animal are the same regardless of the source.

I'm more sympathetic to the exact opposite argument: it's more humane to take wild game than farmed. At least then they've lived a life relatively free of suffering, to the extent nature allows. That seems preferable to me vs. the typical feedlot life.

Re: U.S. surgeons transplant pig heart into human patient

#377
post #218

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Dogs are carnivores. It is incredibly inefficient to raise dogs for meat, because you have to feed them meat to do so. This pretty obviously isn't what people are principally reacting too, but it is massively understated when people get into "why do we eat A and not B?"

This doesn't seem to explain the reaction to even the smallest amount. I don't believe for a second that even 1% of the anger is because the consumer has wasted resources on their food. Or people would be furious about beef when chicken is massively more efficient.

Perhaps it plays a part on conditioning folks through generations on what is viewed as livestock. Dogs for a long time are not, except perhaps in China, which has only started looking into reclassifying dogs from "livestock" to "pets"

https://www.reuters.com/article/us-health-coronavirus-china-...

>even 1% of the anger is because the consumer has wasted resources on their food

Mao Zedong used that reasoning during China's cultural revolution for banning dog ownership

Re: U.S. surgeons transplant pig heart into human patient

#378

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yeah, except we are not talking about two people. We are talking about killing a pig to save a human, potentially thousands of humans.

A thought experiment I always like to posit is: what if we were the animal that needed to be tested on for the benefit of medical research that could safe a lot of the members of an alien species that is much more intelligent than us. Would that by extension also be justified? I eat meat by the way so I'm not trying to supplant my ethical views on you.

I have a similar thought experiment but on “pets” —- What if an advanced civilization uses humans as pets

Re: U.S. surgeons transplant pig heart into human patient

#379
post #336

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I don't know 100% it seems to me that there's room to discuss how a "chimeric" transplant could symbolically be that. Anything that tampers with nature taking its course on its own could be an abomination. Like putting blood from another being into an infant and hooking them up to crazy machines and causing pain to the infant to save their life. Of course, any failure to save someone's life which is readily saved c…

>But the second that you claim that medical choices that someone else might reasonably choose to make are an "abomination"-- you're framing things in a way that people will reasonably interpret as judgment and wanting to prohibit-- or at least denigrate-- those choices by others. You've made a good point about how some of the other posters are feeling. I have difficulty coming up with another word I could have used t…

>You've made a good point about how some of the other posters are feeling. I have difficulty coming up with another word I could have used to communicate what I meant that could have had a different effect. Even without using a strong word, people can be eager and are sometimes trained to perceive the slightest denigration against their choices.

I don't think it's that hard.

"I can agree with the spirit in which the monk made his choice. Personally, going so far as to include parts from another species in a key location in my body: that would make me really strongly consider that my intended lifespan is at its end" --- or whatever thinks you capture the meaning better.

People still might want to argue with you about it, for various reasons. But it lacks that visceral judgment.

In turn, you've received a lot of thoughtful replies and a few pieces of visceral judgment in return (delusional, etc). I don't know if you'd have gotten the harsher judgments if you'd avoided the charged language yourself.

> Given that my faith is generally seen in the present context with a high degree of disdain and contempt, I've grown pretty callous to needing to endure being treated with uncivility, particularly online, in order to speak. The only remedy for it I find is to cultivate a forgiveness of other people for their speech, even if I feel a need to challenge their speech's contents.

I don't believe I've been uncivil-- and I don't see anything too untoward here. Some other people are out of line with the "delusional" comment.

But, you're the one taking the hard moral stance and using language that invalidates other choice.

> where we can see in front of ourselves only a few "meters"

Well, if we can only see in front of ourselves slightly, perhaps it's time to be a little more forgiving that other people may see it completely differently from you.

Re: U.S. surgeons transplant pig heart into human patient

#380
post #61

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Pigs are really common in biomedical testing. They are physically a similar size and weight to humans. They also reach maturity in about 6 months. Much cheaper to raise than primates, and more likely to get approval for testing. My friends in biomed grad school named one of theirs cyber pig because it has about 30 different experiments ran on it before it was killed, and afterwards it was portioned out for further te…

Weird how this is said without a shred of sympathy or concern for an intelligent, helpless creature. Weirder how it can be said without a sympathetic or concerned response. I hope we can someday move beyond seeing animals as a mere resource.

We eat them. We're simply hard wired to use them as a resource.
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