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U.S. surgeons transplant pig heart into human patient

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Re: U.S. surgeons transplant pig heart into human patient

#341

Post by mlyle »

JetAlone wrote: post #315
mlyle wrote: post #308

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> > how we define "abomination" comes down to what we're used to. > If a person believes scripture is only a cultural document and not divine revelation then that would be the definition of abomination. I have to personally disagree with that assessment. That's not what I claimed. But to claim something is "abomination" based on your own personal recoil from it isn't very useful as a moral framework. > and accepting…

>But to claim something is "abomination" based on your own personal recoil from it isn't very useful as a moral framework. I said that something could possibly be an abomination, that being a human being with pig guts installed in place of their human guts. Is that my own personal recoil? I don't know 100% it seems to me that there's room to discuss how a "chimeric" transplant could symbolically be that. My entire pu…

> but the responders don't seem to be terribly pleased with them.

Just to augment my previous response, and clarify this specific thing:

You may not be attempting to apply your morality and your moral judgments to others.

But the second that you claim that medical choices that someone else might reasonably choose to make are an "abomination"-- you're framing things in a way that people will reasonably interpret as judgment and wanting to prohibit-- or at least denigrate-- those choices by others.

Re: U.S. surgeons transplant pig heart into human patient

#342

Post by dexwiz »

Sporktacular wrote: post #230
dexwiz wrote: post #61

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Pigs are really common in biomedical testing. They are physically a similar size and weight to humans. They also reach maturity in about 6 months. Much cheaper to raise than primates, and more likely to get approval for testing. My friends in biomed grad school named one of theirs cyber pig because it has about 30 different experiments ran on it before it was killed, and afterwards it was portioned out for further te…

Weird how this is said without a shred of sympathy or concern for an intelligent, helpless creature. Weirder how it can be said without a sympathetic or concerned response. I hope we can someday move beyond seeing animals as a mere resource.

From what I heard, the pig lived a relativity good life. It was well cared for by the large animal veterinary school on campus. Had more space and better food than any factory raised pig. All experiments passed an ethics review. The pig was anesthetized before any procedure. The number of experiments may sound barbaric on the surface, but it was to reduce the overall number of pigs used in trials.

Modern medicine would not be possible without animal trials. Lab-on-a-chips may reduce the need in the future, but animals will still be required for device testing that needs an entire structure, not just a few cells. Different people may weigh the ethical dilemma differently, but when it's your loved dying due a heart defect I am willing to bet you will still choose a treatment tested on animals.

Re: U.S. surgeons transplant pig heart into human patient

#343

Post by jakear »

badRNG wrote: post #98
TulliusCicero wrote: post #46

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> On one hand, we already raise pigs to kill and eat routinely, and (mostly) people don't care - is this any different than say, buying a pig heart at the market to eat? Yes, in that it's morally superior to eating meat. Eating meat is mostly a nutritional luxury, but needing functioning organs is not. I'm a meat eater, but I imagine there are a number of vegetarians who would be okay with this sort of organ harvesti…

A (somewhat?) vegan perspective. I've teetered on staying committed to veganism for ethical reasons, and have spent time on and off with vegan diets. I don't at all think (nor do I think most vegans think [see disclaimer]) that pigs are worthy of equal moral consideration as humans. I, along with most humans, think that pigs as well as other animals are worthy of some level of moral consideration. Most would be right…

A bit off topic but you seem level-headed and I've been wondering about this for a while: what's your vegan "endgame"? The way I see it, the "vegan utopia" would get rid of all small family farms (even strictly milk/egg ones) -- where animals are given all the food they need, have access to good medical care, are sheltered from predators, and are able to reproduce and nurse offspring -- and replace all that with... a couple animals scrapping it out against the brutality of raw, unfiltered, natural selection? I wouldn't want that for myself, and I don't know of any vegans who have opted into that lifestyle either. So what gives? Why is the vegan "morally correct" thing to force onto animals the opposite of what we collectively opt into as humans? (Plenty of people say they want to "escape from it all" and go live in the woods, but to actually commit to that for any amount of time is... rare.)

Re: U.S. surgeons transplant pig heart into human patient

#344

Post by dexwiz »

cpdean wrote: post #243
dexwiz wrote: post #180

Earlier quoted context omitted.

From what I remember most of the experiments where more material based like healing a bone, or replacing a joint, or some sort of implant. So you could have things interfere, but it wasn’t like drug trials which would effect the entire body.

the image here got so much more visceral now i guess i shouldn't be surprised what a medical experiment is but breaking a pig foot?? ouch

Orthopedic surgeons break bones all the time. It sounds cruel, but when done in a medical context, it's not so strange. It was a surgical procedure, it's not like someone dropped a rock on an awake pig.

Re: U.S. surgeons transplant pig heart into human patient

#345

Post by tchanglington »

Sporktacular wrote: post #230
dexwiz wrote: post #61

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Pigs are really common in biomedical testing. They are physically a similar size and weight to humans. They also reach maturity in about 6 months. Much cheaper to raise than primates, and more likely to get approval for testing. My friends in biomed grad school named one of theirs cyber pig because it has about 30 different experiments ran on it before it was killed, and afterwards it was portioned out for further te…

Weird how this is said without a shred of sympathy or concern for an intelligent, helpless creature. Weirder how it can be said without a sympathetic or concerned response. I hope we can someday move beyond seeing animals as a mere resource.

Because it helps save humans

Re: U.S. surgeons transplant pig heart into human patient

#346

Post by fennecfoxen »

lupire wrote: post #145
hwbehrens wrote: post #38

If pigs (or any animal) broaden the compatibility to other organs, what are the ethical implications for raising them with the intention to harvest their organs, if any? On one hand, we already raise pigs to kill and eat routinely, and (mostly) people don't care - is this any different than say, buying a pig heart at the market to eat? On the other hand, it does somehow feel different to me, perhaps because sharing o…

In the book Treason, people are bred for spare parts.

A Planet Called Treason, right?

Yow. Surprised to see it mentioned here, or, well, anywhere.

Re: U.S. surgeons transplant pig heart into human patient

#347

Post by alex_sf »

pipodeclown wrote: post #333
Hnrobert42 wrote: post #288

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yeah, except we are not talking about two people. We are talking about killing a pig to save a human, potentially thousands of humans.

A thought experiment I always like to posit is: what if we were the animal that needed to be tested on for the benefit of medical research that could safe a lot of the members of an alien species that is much more intelligent than us. Would that by extension also be justified? I eat meat by the way so I'm not trying to supplant my ethical views on you.

Fwiw a lot of people would argue that sacrificing one human for the benefit of many more is worthwhile. Not something to celebrate, but an acceptable tradeoff.

Re: U.S. surgeons transplant pig heart into human patient

#348

Post by alex_sf »

chii wrote: post #329
theplumber wrote: post #282

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I find such a remark weird given that "you" are serving such "helpless" creatures at your favorite restaurant. I think it's the ultimate hypocrisy. Not to mention that we have a situation where helpless creatures are sacrificed for the science/common good of human beings and the other situation where they are murdered for the taste of their meat & bones.

Both food, or medical, is a use of a resource that is created by and for humans. The pig wouldn't have been born had their purpose for food, or medical use, not been there. it's not like humans are capturing wild pigs and using them. I would say that wild animals deserves the right to exist and not hunted (unless they're threatening human interests), but the same cannot be said for bred animals.

I don't see any distinction at all. Can you elaborate?

(I'm an omnivore that's relatively OK with animal testing, fwiw)

Re: U.S. surgeons transplant pig heart into human patient

#349

Post by emersonrsantos »

tricky wrote: post #26

You might be asking, why a pig? I don't know, but forever ago I wrote software for a cardiovascular imaging lab and pigs were their primary test subjects. I was like, "why pigs?" and the PI was like, "Imaging-wise, pig hearts aren't too different from humans. Plus, we can give them a heart attack in the scanner and not go to jail. Some labs use dogs. I just can't do that."

I don't get it that dogs/cats/horses/etc are sentient but pigs/cows/chicken and other animals are not.

Re: U.S. surgeons transplant pig heart into human patient

#350

Post by mise_en_place »

Sporktacular wrote: post #230
dexwiz wrote: post #61

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Pigs are really common in biomedical testing. They are physically a similar size and weight to humans. They also reach maturity in about 6 months. Much cheaper to raise than primates, and more likely to get approval for testing. My friends in biomed grad school named one of theirs cyber pig because it has about 30 different experiments ran on it before it was killed, and afterwards it was portioned out for further te…

Weird how this is said without a shred of sympathy or concern for an intelligent, helpless creature. Weirder how it can be said without a sympathetic or concerned response. I hope we can someday move beyond seeing animals as a mere resource.

I don’t think it’s weird at all. If a million people were to die of COVID tomorrow, I wouldn’t really care emotionally. They all had their own life narratives, emotions and intelligence. Yet it wouldn’t phase me one bit. Perhaps intellectually I would have some compassion for them, and would hope they didn’t suffer.

On the other hand, if a close relative or friend dies, I would mourn them immensely. Similarly, if I had a pet pig I would mourn that individual pig a lot. But a lab pig that’s used for experiments not so much.

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