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U.S. surgeons transplant pig heart into human patient

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Re: U.S. surgeons transplant pig heart into human patient

#171

Post by mizzao »

TravHatesMe wrote: post #163
dexwiz wrote: post #61

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Pigs are really common in biomedical testing. They are physically a similar size and weight to humans. They also reach maturity in about 6 months. Much cheaper to raise than primates, and more likely to get approval for testing. My friends in biomed grad school named one of theirs cyber pig because it has about 30 different experiments ran on it before it was killed, and afterwards it was portioned out for further te…

Bit of a tangent: I read the article to my wife and she mentioned that there is an episode of Grey's Anatomy where they wanted to perform a transplant of a pig's bowels but the Jewish (or Muslim?) lady refused. Interesting how one might choose to their faith over their life.

That was actually an inaccurate portrayal of Jewish law and Orthodox Jews "condemned the episode": https://www.myjewishlearning.com/article/ask-the-expert-kosh...

Re: U.S. surgeons transplant pig heart into human patient

#172

Post by mardifoufs »

jhgb wrote: post #155
mardifoufs wrote: post #134

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'd argue that in islam pretty much all of these restrictions are not applicable when it's for medical reasons. Alcohol is explicitly allowed in such cases (I think it was used to relieve pain in surgeries) , and even pork is okay to eat if you can't find anything else. Another example would be Ramadan fasting, which is not necessary if you are ill or when you are travelin. Overall, almost any restriction in islam is…

You can rationalize all you want, but you can't reason religious people out of things they didn't reason themselves into. If these people can be convinced that they shouldn't be doing thing XYZ on the order of an omnipotent being that nobody has ever seen, chances seem to be even between them accepting exceptions from this order and them rejecting these exceptions. After all, you see other people rejecting/ignoring o…

It's not rationalization, I know some religions have a pretty rigid structure that you need to rationalize your way around when it comes to medical exceptions to religious rules but... Islam is not one of them. Maybe some folk belief might be a source of hesitation in this case but in islam the jurisprudence is very clear and no scholar would really argue otherwise. Just to give an example, even ISIS allowed alcohol to be used for medical reasons if prescribed by a doctor! I'm Muslim and have a pretty good grasp of the beliefs of the different islamic branches/sects/schools and I've rarely came across an example of restrictions not being waived for medical reasons, though it's very possible I've missed some examples.

Re: U.S. surgeons transplant pig heart into human patient

#173

Post by jacquesm »

Supermancho wrote: post #84
garren wrote: post #15

I wonder why a pig heart rather than one from another primate? The article mentions a baboon heart in an earlier attempt at xenotransplantation with an infant. Is a pig’s heart as, or more, compatible or is it more a matter of availability?

At age 2, I was a candidate for a monkey heart transplant, as I had a perforated aortic valve and surgery on tissue with the consistency of wet-toilet paper in an infant had a very high mortality rate (the girl on the table before I went in had died). My parents declined the monkey transplant. Good thing. The intended recipients of multiple attempts at the monkey hearts, died. I eventually received a primitive mechan…

When I read stories like yours I can't believe how lucky 99.999% of us are. You were born just in time to catch this wave of improvements.

Re: U.S. surgeons transplant pig heart into human patient

#174

Post by toss1 »

tombert wrote: post #144

Genuine question: why is an artificial heart such a hard thing to make? At least from a lay-person's perspective, it's just some pumps and valves, which we've gotten pretty good at making. Obviously I'm wrong about that because there really isn't a permanent artificial heart yet, but it's something I have wondered for awhile.

It has been done, as mentioned by other comments. My recollection is that aside from power & control, the hardest problem is clotting. The natural heart apparently causes the blood to flow in a way that there is no pooling or stagnation, whereas almost any fixed-shape chamber apparently has locations where the fluid will stagnate, and with blood, that will cause clots in a very short time. When those clots get loose, they can then go to the lungs and cause a pulmonary embolism, or to the brain and cause a stroke, both of which are very bad and often fatal. So, getting a mechanism that won't do that even once in years of continuous operation is ... nontrivial.

EDIT - this is what I recall reading, but I'm not a biomed, I'd like to see a more detailed description from someone in the field.

Re: U.S. surgeons transplant pig heart into human patient

#175

Post by gpu_explorer »

TravHatesMe wrote: post #163
dexwiz wrote: post #61

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Pigs are really common in biomedical testing. They are physically a similar size and weight to humans. They also reach maturity in about 6 months. Much cheaper to raise than primates, and more likely to get approval for testing. My friends in biomed grad school named one of theirs cyber pig because it has about 30 different experiments ran on it before it was killed, and afterwards it was portioned out for further te…

Bit of a tangent: I read the article to my wife and she mentioned that there is an episode of Grey's Anatomy where they wanted to perform a transplant of a pig's bowels but the Jewish (or Muslim?) lady refused. Interesting how one might choose to their faith over their life.

Kosher rules are against eating pig meat. You can have a pig heart valve or heart, especially to save a life.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pikuach_nefesh

Not that everyone would do it.

Re: U.S. surgeons transplant pig heart into human patient

#176

Post by jacquesm »

soco wrote: post #39
kiba wrote: post #34

We're getting good at building artificial nonorganic heart, still a bit away from growing conventional hearts. I wonder how these future options intersect, whether one will win out over another, or we will be having hybrids? Electromagnetic motors work fine, but a big issue with them is the method of powering them and maybe biocompatibility issue. Normal organic hearts don't have this disadvantage but their downside…

One word: 3D printing. Ok that was two words, but still exciting.

This has absolutely nothing to do with 3D printing.

Re: U.S. surgeons transplant pig heart into human patient

#178

Post by SomeHacker44 »

DrAwdeOccarim wrote: post #169
cwkoss wrote: post #122

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Are pigs used in biomedical testing ever butchered for their meat? Seems like we kill a lot of pigs every year anyways. Would be neat if we could get multiple birds from one stone - for experiments where there isn't a risk of making the meat dangerous at least.

I doubt it. All disposed of according to hazardous waste rules. Also, large study animals are so important that most tissues and bits are studied during necropsy in close details with retained material kept frozen for years.

Actually, I heard an NPR story over the holidays about a tick borne disease that causes a meat allergy, and how pigs raised for another purpose then became suitable for butchering to eat their meat for people with that disease... So it happens in at least one case.

Re: U.S. surgeons transplant pig heart into human patient

#179

Post by stillicidious »

TravHatesMe wrote: post #163
dexwiz wrote: post #61

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Pigs are really common in biomedical testing. They are physically a similar size and weight to humans. They also reach maturity in about 6 months. Much cheaper to raise than primates, and more likely to get approval for testing. My friends in biomed grad school named one of theirs cyber pig because it has about 30 different experiments ran on it before it was killed, and afterwards it was portioned out for further te…

Bit of a tangent: I read the article to my wife and she mentioned that there is an episode of Grey's Anatomy where they wanted to perform a transplant of a pig's bowels but the Jewish (or Muslim?) lady refused. Interesting how one might choose to their faith over their life.

> Interesting how one might choose to their faith over their life.

The belief in the right to a predictably long life is a new idea barely a few centuries old at most. Not that I'm personally complaining, but the statement did make me think, the value of living longer for everyone is not self-evident (at least from where I am standing), and the presumption that it is seems in itself dogmatic.

Actually, I could suggest a few non-faith approaches to rationalize the benefit of early death

Re: U.S. surgeons transplant pig heart into human patient

#180

Post by dexwiz »

polishdude20 wrote: post #111
dexwiz wrote: post #61

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Pigs are really common in biomedical testing. They are physically a similar size and weight to humans. They also reach maturity in about 6 months. Much cheaper to raise than primates, and more likely to get approval for testing. My friends in biomed grad school named one of theirs cyber pig because it has about 30 different experiments ran on it before it was killed, and afterwards it was portioned out for further te…

How do you make sure all those experiments don't interfere with eachother?

From what I remember most of the experiments where more material based like healing a bone, or replacing a joint, or some sort of implant. So you could have things interfere, but it wasn’t like drug trials which would effect the entire body.
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