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Fucking Sue Me

pud.com

131–140 of 152 posts

Re: Fucking Sue Me

#131

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Here's the problem: if they do end up suing you, and you just accepted whatever provisions they put in their contract, you're going to be screwed. The first version of a contract always strongly favors the party providing it, it's not malicious, it's just the right way to do it.

It is never right to proffer a deal that you know to be unfair to another party.

But it might be legal.

Re: Fucking Sue Me

#132
This sort of advise works great until they actually do sue. One of my biggest clients got recently sued by a long term client of his - a Fortune 100 company with all kinds of legal resources. My client had to shut down his business and then scramble to protect his personal assets like house, properties, etc.

Re: Fucking Sue Me

#133

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Here's the problem: if they do end up suing you, and you just accepted whatever provisions they put in their contract, you're going to be screwed. The first version of a contract always strongly favors the party providing it, it's not malicious, it's just the right way to do it.

It is never right to proffer a deal that you know to be unfair to another party.

You're presuming that it's possible to determine that, but generally it isn't. Generally, I know what's fair for _my business_ and it's the responsibility of the other party to determine what's reasonable for them. Different parties will each have their own evaluation of a contract term - I may view something as a major risk and want protection, while the counterparty doesn't view it as likely and is happy to give that protection. This is why negotiating deals can be so interesting.

Providing a contract that is favorable to your own needs, while not deceptive, is in no way unfair or unscrupulous. The counterparty always has the right to negotiate or simply refuse to execute the contract. You can't expect to anticipate the needs of both parties and to do so would just make negotiating a deal more difficult, because you'll have less flexibility to give the other side what they need.

Re: Fucking Sue Me

#134

> Then there was the time I wanted to hire my first full time employee. I was apprehensive to do it because I only had enough money to pay him for 2 months, unless I got another client fast. > “Worry about that in 2 months,” Dad said. Speaking from the perspective of that employee, fuck you . OK, for the serious point: you may be not give a shit about risk. Good for you, you crazy risk taker! The world truly needs mo…

Why are you automatically assuming that the prospective employee had no idea that his employment was not completely assured beyond 2 months?

Re: Fucking Sue Me

#135
post #56

Linkbait. Some of my competitors write contracts specifically so that they can sue other companies. How about this, I fucking read my contracts and I don't sign bullshit.

Keep in mind that Pud is the original Mike Arrington.

Re: Fucking Sue Me

#136
post #106
post #70

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why would a coder ever be held responsible for something not specified in the requirements doc? If people wanted Y2K compliant software in the 70s and 80s they should have specified it. As for multibillion dollar valuations, what's wrong with the valuations on MSFT, AAPL, GOOG? If you think the PE is crazy on LNKD, just short it. As for what VCs are willing to invest for particular companies those investments are mor…

Because it's not unreasonable to expect the coder to supply you with something which will not fail arbitrarily in 10 years for a reason which is 100% predictable. A parallel example: If an Architect designs you a building which develops a leak because of a mistake in a construction detail you would sue for the cost of repairs and damage to property. Either in contract if available or in Tort for negligence if no cont…

Defects that are 100% predictable do not fail arbitrarily, they fail predictably.

I suppose you've never used a fixed size data type (eg. int) as a primary key right?

Re: Fucking Sue Me

#137
post #64

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I definitely understand where you are coming from (and I didn't downvote you), but I have to disagree. That employee (we'll call her Sarah) isn't being paid to see how a startup is created; she's paying to see how a startup is created. She's paying heavily. She's losing money in the form of a lower salary compared to equivalent jobs, and she's losing money in the form of losing free-time compared to equivalent jobs.…

Not to mention that employee #1, if an engineer, is probably chained to the engine block (figuratively), toiling with keeping the machines running. He/she most likely remains in the dark when it comes to the business development and deal making that are all important for succeeding as a startup.

Exactly. This is my biggest problem with the "earning versus learning" philosophy. Both times I was employee #1 the founders had no interest in sharing any aspect of the business side of the company. I was there to build the product; anything else was a distraction.

Re: Fucking Sue Me

#138
post #32

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's reassuring. (putting in my two weeks notice tomorrow to be employee #1)

Make sure that you'd be happy if you worked long and hard for the start-up and all you got was the salary they're paying you + the experience. Even if the start-up is a huge success, the chances of you making substantial amounts of money are low, unless you have founder-level equity.

My husband was an early employee at a company that was acquired in a mid-nine-figure deal. The founders walked away with at least a hundred million each. Employee #1 got a low seven-figure payout, after about ten years of grueling overtime. Keep in mind this was actually a company that is IMO unusually fair and considerate toward employees.

You really need billions of dollars coming into a company before non-founders have a chance to make fuck-you money.

Re: Fucking Sue Me

#139
post #35

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think the point to "fucking sue me" is that you don't "fucking sue" someone over something trivial. So, if the dollar value of some provision in the contract is not worth the cost of a lawsuit, in a way, it is kinda immaterial to the agreement because it would cost more to collect. So, I think the article is trying to hit the middle road you're advocating, though didn't make it as explicitly clear as it could have.

You're assuming companies act rationally and won't sue you if it costs them money. That is a dangerous assumption: one guy that you pissed off is enough to send you down a dark hole.

I know of trading firms who will sue to try to enforce a mostly unenforceable non-compete agreement on a trader who leaves just to piss them off and waste their time and money to protect themselves (and try to scare others from leaving in the future). But...this is the exception. No one said hedge funds were rational!

Re: Fucking Sue Me

#140

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It is never right to proffer a deal that you know to be unfair to another party.

Define "unfair". Every contract I've ever seen has been biased in favor of the firm writing the contract. Is this "unfair"? If you want "unfair" - try looking at some term sheets....

Yes, it is unfair to offer a contract that is "biased" to the firm that writes it (within reasonable definitions of "biased").
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