Milan confirms new cycling network linking 80% of the city to bike paths • Hacker News Board

Re: Milan confirms new cycling network linking 80% of the city to bike paths

#171

Post by cianmm » Mon, Jan 10, 2022, 6:37 PM UTC

999900000999 wrote: post #164

drakonka wrote: post #131

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I read these types of arguments a lot from people who live in places where cycling is not the norm. They tend to read like strange nitpicks in light of how common it is for people of ages to cycle in different types of weather. 5 miles doesn't seem like that far to cycle. I am by no means an avid cyclist myself - for longer trips I take public transport. But I see plenty of people cycling even while I am on the train…

If every American city was dense, I'd go for metro + cycling. But as is that isn't the case. I don't think most Americans are fit enough to cycle , that's ultimately the issue. But even if your overweight, taking a train isn't a problem.

Even if you're overweight, cycling a bike is very rarely a problem. I'm an active cycle campaigner so I am definitely more exposed to many types of cycle commuters, but I know many people who are overweight for whom cycling is their primary method of transport. At two of my friends have told me that they cycle because it is actually more comfortable than walking long distances for them. I personally have an injury which can make it tough to walk long distances, but which doesn't stop me cycling 10x that distance.

I also know several people who have various form of physical disability who cycle either totally normal bikes or ebikes, or adjusted (to different degrees) bikes or ebikes.

If we had better cycle infrastructure where I live (a relatively small European city), many many more people would release that they can get where they're going faster and cheaper on a bike than in a car, and have more fun while doing it. Even when it's raining.

Re: Milan confirms new cycling network linking 80% of the city to bike paths

#172

Post by cianmm » Mon, Jan 10, 2022, 6:43 PM UTC

999900000999 wrote: post #166

ghusbands wrote: post #154

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Rain does not make in-city cycling significantly more dangerous, and is definitely fine for inexperienced cyclists. But if people cycle regularly, they aren't inexperienced, anyway. In areas with frequent rain, people are practiced in carrying waterproof overclothes and such. Sub-zero temperatures, snow and ice can be a much bigger problem, of course, but good maintenance resolves a lot of that, too, as it does for c…

I'm actually intrigued by this, I own a bike and whenever it rains, even a little bit I leave it at home. I'm afraid braking won't work as well, and I'll end up hurting myself.

Sudden braking from a fast speed might be more likely to cause a skid (same as a car but scaled down), but if you're popping down to the shops or commuting to work, you likely will be cycling in a more relaxed style anyway. If you're uncomfertable with braking in the rain, I recommend finding a quiet strip on a rainy day and seeing what it's like. Actively try to skid so that you know what your bike's limits are - from decade of experience cycle commuting in a famously rainy city with some highly aggressive drivers, I've never found the rain to cause additional issues beyond getting wet if I'm unprepared. The only time I have ever come off my bike by my own fault was skidding over a patch of ice about 9 years ago, so I would recommend higher levels of caution in the snow.

Re: Milan confirms new cycling network linking 80% of the city to bike paths

#173

Post by jpthurman » Mon, Jan 10, 2022, 6:48 PM UTC

llampx wrote: post #122

s0rce wrote: post #64

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Americans seem really good at ignoring cyclists being run over. Children don't seem to walk/cycle and rely on being driven around by their parents here so they don't die as much (good, obviously people know its not safe) but doesn't promote infrastructure investment for alternative transit (bad).

In America you just get social services called on you if you let/make your child walk or cycle anywhere.

Yes! I bike with my kids to school daily and if one of them gets out ahead of me inevitably a car stops to ask if they are alright

Re: Milan confirms new cycling network linking 80% of the city to bike paths

#174

Post by 999900000999 » Mon, Jan 10, 2022, 6:49 PM UTC

drakonka wrote: post #168

999900000999 wrote: post #164

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If every American city was dense, I'd go for metro + cycling. But as is that isn't the case. I don't think most Americans are fit enough to cycle , that's ultimately the issue. But even if your overweight, taking a train isn't a problem.

I sympathize, but don't really feel like your comment addresses anything I said. Maybe I didn't get my message across very well in my comment, so I'll try to clarify it here: My point is not that all Americans should suddenly start cycling everywhere at all times. That's unrealistic and undesirable. I get the impression that you're viewing this as some kind of all-or-nothing thing, where as soon as you build a bike p…

I'm on your side, infact I'm considering nearby bike paths for my next apartment.

At the same time, unless you radically redesigned American cities, cycling commuting won't work. City layouts take decades to change, even if people want change. I don't see a push for more compact cities in America ( luckily this is just one country, I already have work auth for at least 1 other place).

I plan on getting a cheap Fixie bike next, I had an insane amount of fun with a 100$ Big Lots bike a few years back.

Re: Milan confirms new cycling network linking 80% of the city to bike paths

#175

Post by dimitrios1 » Mon, Jan 10, 2022, 6:53 PM UTC

hutzlibu wrote: post #150

dimitrios1 wrote: post #141

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In suburbia America, where bike lanes are abound and plenty of cyclists to boot, it is the cyclists that are entitled, selfish, arrogant, and ignore the traffic rules. They've recently resorted to riding 4-5 cyclists wide to take up the entire roadway. They ignore stop signs and traffic lights, trying to pass as a pedestrian whenever it is convenient, and have been responsible for many pedestrian related injuries. Fo…

"They ignore stop signs and traffic lights, trying to pass as a pedestrian whenever it is convenient, and have been responsible for many pedestrian related injuries" No doubt, there are ruthless cyclists as well. Still, are you aware of the difference in numbers and quality of "car driver killed cyclist" vs. "cyclist hurt pedestrian"?

Yes. I am aware. This doesn't change the argument, and more importantly, nor does it change the perception of the situation. Cyclists situation in America will not improve so long as the perception of them are they are smug assholes. Everyone already knows there are smug asshole drivers. But we already have roads for cars everywhere. If you want to try and get more tax dollars for segregated bike lanes, the perception and the argument has to change.

Re: Milan confirms new cycling network linking 80% of the city to bike paths

#176

Post by vishnugupta » Mon, Jan 10, 2022, 6:54 PM UTC

usrusr wrote: post #125

vishnugupta wrote: post #100

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Those are picture of a Cambridge roundabout, I realised it minutes after posting it when I noticed the driving was on the left (as opposed to right in NL) :-). The architecture is very close to those in the NL though which fooled my lazy eyes. Pedestrian islands, enabling free movement of cyclists with clear markings etc.,

How does right of way with this wide separation work though? In my experience (not Dutch) it always goes like this when a car and a cyclist approach a point where their paths cross and the cyclist has right of way: cyclist slows down to be ready for an emergency stop knowing full well that right of way won't be of any help when bones are crushed, driver takes it as an invitation to "slip" through. The usual cooperati…

Cyclists have unilateral priority over everything else. I suppose first few years a few cyclists' bones did get crushed. However through training, stringent laws etc., it's drilled into everyone to make way for cyclists. At the roundabouts there's no negotiation etc., Motor vehicles dare not slip through. They patiently wait lest they invite the wrath of authorities.

I suppose there's a better way. However, as a society, Dutch have decided to go whole nine yards to being a cycling friendly nation. And it shows and has its benefits.

Re: Milan confirms new cycling network linking 80% of the city to bike paths

#177

Post by vkou » Mon, Jan 10, 2022, 6:54 PM UTC

multiplegeorges wrote: post #68

MomoXenosaga wrote: post #43

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In Holland they learned the hard way that you have to physically cordon off half of every road for bicycles. But you have to remember that just putting some paint on the pavement is a lot cheaper so that's what the government tries first. The reason why roads were taken back by Dutch cyclists and pedestrians is that they never stopped doing it. At some dark moment in the 1970s the number of children run over by cars…

> It was a battle won by blood. This is the current battle in Toronto, Canada. Last year, there were more people killed by cars than gun violence, but you wouldn't know it by the media coverage. The city, largely due to strong local advocacy, has started to respond with physically separated lanes, but we're talking double digit KM/year, if we're lucky, when we need 100s of KM to link the city together like this Milan…

> Last year, there were more people killed by cars than gun violence, but you wouldn't know it by the media coverage.

Same thing in the Greater Seattle Anarchist metro area, but we don't get screaming Nextdoor or city subreddit posts every time there's a fatal automotive crash.

Re: Milan confirms new cycling network linking 80% of the city to bike paths

#178

Post by drakonka » Mon, Jan 10, 2022, 6:56 PM UTC

999900000999 wrote: post #174

drakonka wrote: post #168

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I sympathize, but don't really feel like your comment addresses anything I said. Maybe I didn't get my message across very well in my comment, so I'll try to clarify it here: My point is not that all Americans should suddenly start cycling everywhere at all times. That's unrealistic and undesirable. I get the impression that you're viewing this as some kind of all-or-nothing thing, where as soon as you build a bike p…

I'm on your side, infact I'm considering nearby bike paths for my next apartment. At the same time, unless you radically redesigned American cities, cycling commuting won't work. City layouts take decades to change, even if people want change. I don't see a push for more compact cities in America ( luckily this is just one country, I already have work auth for at least 1 other place). I plan on getting a cheap Fixie…

I hope you enjoy your Fixie (and find an apartment with nice bike paths!) I have a little folding Brompton that's served me well over the years, and a beefier e-bike that was a life-saver last year when I didn't want to take public transport due to COVID.

Re: Milan confirms new cycling network linking 80% of the city to bike paths

#179

Post by whoiskevin » Mon, Jan 10, 2022, 6:58 PM UTC

dimitrios1 wrote: post #141

Cthulhu_ wrote: post #71

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And there's plenty of space in the US; most roads can be half as wide and still service most cars. Plenty of space to build in a hard shoulder / fencing and a dedicated two-way bike lane. But that's only part of the problem, the amount of entitled, and selfish drivers that ignore traffic rules, lights and sometimes even roads is crazy.

In suburbia America, where bike lanes are abound and plenty of cyclists to boot, it is the cyclists that are entitled, selfish, arrogant, and ignore the traffic rules. They've recently resorted to riding 4-5 cyclists wide to take up the entire roadway. They ignore stop signs and traffic lights, trying to pass as a pedestrian whenever it is convenient, and have been responsible for many pedestrian related injuries. Fo…

We were able to find a few cyclists who misbehaved so we are going to justify killing them with 1 ton metal machines because we feel threatened by them?

Re: Milan confirms new cycling network linking 80% of the city to bike paths

#180

Post by dimitrios1 » Mon, Jan 10, 2022, 7:00 PM UTC

whoiskevin wrote: post #179

dimitrios1 wrote: post #141

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In suburbia America, where bike lanes are abound and plenty of cyclists to boot, it is the cyclists that are entitled, selfish, arrogant, and ignore the traffic rules. They've recently resorted to riding 4-5 cyclists wide to take up the entire roadway. They ignore stop signs and traffic lights, trying to pass as a pedestrian whenever it is convenient, and have been responsible for many pedestrian related injuries. Fo…

We were able to find a few cyclists who misbehaved so we are going to justify killing them with 1 ton metal machines because we feel threatened by them?

This is the absolute least charitable interpretation of what I am saying.