I don’t need to be convinced. I don’t like unions, and I think there is likely a better alternative than a centuries old idea. The thing I personally dislike the most is the all or nothing aspect. I don’t want to be compelled to join and union or compelled to pay union dues. I don’t want to be in a union, and I don’t mind bargaining on my own behalf as an individual.
Google Had Secret Project to ‘Convince’ Employees ‘That Unions Suck’
211–220 of 411 posts
Re: Google Had Secret Project to ‘Convince’ Employees ‘That Unions Suck’
#212Earlier quoted context omitted.
What if adversarial systems result in asymmetric arms races and the game theoretic best move is to work for a corporation that is so short sighted as to go to battle against their own employees and to work for them diligently and intelligently? Because I see a whole lot happier employees at Tesla than I do at General Motors. I'm not saying this is an all-or-nothing thing. I'd join a union if I was working for a certa…
Are they happier at Tesla? Because I hear it is pretty terrible place to work as a software engineer.
I think it just depends on if you like the kool-aid there. If you embrace their mission statement as your own, then other concerns might factor less for you.
Re: Google Had Secret Project to ‘Convince’ Employees ‘That Unions Suck’
#213Earlier quoted context omitted.
Google is a huge, public company. Any ideals that survived going public will slowly be ground out by repeated exposure to management consultants from McKinsey and the hordes of MBAs attracted to the smell of ibanker excitement. You can't go public, or become part of a public firm, and not become more like the rest of the big players.
The rampant cynicism regarding corporations is increasingly unhelpful. We’ve had forty years of hands off antitrust regulation and enforcement. We’ve had a bifurcating justice system that doesn’t hold white collar criminals accountable. It hasn’t always been this way and doesn’t have to stay this way. For those interested in the challenges we’re facing with monopolies and individuals trying to effect change, I recomm…
I wouldn't call it cynicism, just being realistic. It is perfectly normal that a company, from the size to Amazon to sole proprietorship, tend to maximize profit - and one of the main ways is to minimize costs. I'm yet to see a single one that doesn't care about costs and survives.
Now, there are different people, with varying morals. When they advance to major positions in a company, they make various decisions. Unfortunately, our culture rewards the actions and attitude of people like Gates who deliberately made many grey-area decisions that we might call "egoistic" or just plain "evil" if they were aimed at individuals, or like Bezos, who treats human beings in his warehouses like cattle. So I'm sorry, we are not the ones being cynical here.
Re: Google Had Secret Project to ‘Convince’ Employees ‘That Unions Suck’
#214Earlier quoted context omitted.
Pure speculation on my part but I think Google unionizing makes the most sense out of any FAANG. Googlers in SF are “trapped” by the benefits they get. > the employee has more leverage over the employer than in many other fields Housing deductions, childcare costs, food, travel, etc are all heavily subsidized by the company making it near impossible to leave without moving out of the Bay Area. Housing benefits alone…
What "housing deductions and childcare costs" does Google provide? A web search didn't turn up much and this doesn't sound like a standard benefit.
I also am having difficulty finding documentation for this, but I know it’s true. Many condo and apartment complexes around Google campuses have “preferred employer rates” that slash the rent for Googlers.
Re: Google Had Secret Project to ‘Convince’ Employees ‘That Unions Suck’
#215Imputing altruistic morals to profit-seeking entities and then continually being surprised and offended when companies act shady puts employees in a pointlessly weak position. Instead, treat the relationship as adversarial and come ready for battle every day against the legal structure designed to exploit you for the benefit of distant shareholders. There is no shame in fighting for yourself. You are worth it.
The problem with cynical takes like this is they absolve Google of any responsibility. Are they profit seeking? Yes. Does every for-profit company engage in 4D chess with its employees convincing them that unions are bad? No. This is a specific mea culpa of Google, not a flaw inherent in every company and we shouldn’t absolve them of fault because they’re “profit-seeking.”
> come ready for battle every day
On one hand, yes, it’s important to remember that you are only an employee at a company and to not get too doe-eyed about it. On the other hand, we shouldn’t have to come ready to fight misinformation from our own employer. Also, most people do find meaning and purpose from working, if they are working in the right career for them. It is an oversimplification to say the relationship between employer and employee is adversarial.
Re: Google Had Secret Project to ‘Convince’ Employees ‘That Unions Suck’
#216Earlier quoted context omitted.
shadowgovt said it very well and he speaks for me there. But I do believe that when hard work and preparation meets opportunity, good things happen. I'm not saying everything is pointless at all. I've earned every one of the few pennies I have the hard way, believe me. I have a non-stop work history going back to when I was 11 years old, grinding down spot welding tips on a lathe to buy my own video games and toys. M…
God damn, that is such an insult to the brilliance and uniqueness of a single individual such as Carmack. > That's all that separates Carmack from swaths, or multitudes of programmers on HN. I am astounded by HN's hatred for the extraordinary every day I remain on this putrid hellhole of a site.
Hatred? It's just a fact. If you were smart enough, born in the right time period when computers were taking off, born in the right country that wasn't torn by war and poverty, and also born in a reasonably wealthy family to afford computers, only then did you become successful in tech.
Notice how all of those variables are outside the individual's control. I never chose to be born in the shithole that is Greece that was ravaged by the debt crisis, yet it affected me as an individual significantly. Sure I may have had the ability to fight my way through, but I know many who didn't. Furthermore, Bill Gates and Bill Joy never chose to be born into the year they were born just as computers were taking off, they just did. And they used their smarts to make billions.
The sad truth still remains that the strongest predictor of an individual's success is their economic and family background. No one has proven otherwise.
Re: Google Had Secret Project to ‘Convince’ Employees ‘That Unions Suck’
#217Earlier quoted context omitted.
Some of us have seen the exorbitant damage bad unions can cause, for example ILWU destroying Portland, OR’s container shipping industry in a bid to steal two jobs from another union. https://www.universalcargo.com/jury-hits-ilwu-with-93m-verdi... (less industry-oriented source: https://www.wweek.com/news/2019/11/29/longshore-union-faces-... ) See also: public sector unions.
Not just to the company. They aren't always good for all the people they claim to represent. I'm not American, and live in a place where unions have pretty strong protection and usually have industry-wide negotiating power. They are also gerontocracies and will screw over young people to favour the old. I will no longer work for places where unions negotiate. I prefer the clear incentives of an employer over the uncl…
> They are also gerontocracies and will screw over young people to favour the old.
This probably says as much about the wider society that you live in as it does about the unions.
Re: Google Had Secret Project to ‘Convince’ Employees ‘That Unions Suck’
#218I think it's because Unions have been replaced by other mode of employee empowerment: stock options.
Think from the point of the Employee:
1- Union Provides rights; but the employee feels that most of the basic rights are either already provided, or if not, should be provided by legislation not by union action now, so better vote in your favorite politician rather than fiddle with a union.
2- Union provide benefits; but employee might feel the benefit provided by stock options supersede any benefit provided by union (stonks over pensions, basically)
3- Union provided job security; but people don't care that now. For themselves, the idea of one long term job with benefits is no longer relevant, better to work a few years, encash stocks and move with a higher signup bonus and a pay increase higher than any company raise. For their fellow employees, you might NOT want to have job stability for the dick working next to you. If they are fired, all the better for your job, your stock not affected by their poor performance.If an entire department needs to be removed because their work is obsolete (say, ICE specific dept being useless in the new EV world for example) you might not want the dead weight.
4- Union provided social benefit; but linked to example above, instead of the dead weight employees being forcefully kept employed by the company, and hindering your work, you would much rather the govt allow you to kick them out, allow you to increase efficiency and raise stock price, and then TAX you... and provide them social security benefit, while they train for new work or whatever. You are still morally satisfied because the social benefit still takes care of them, but they are not hurting your work (and your stock price), so you don't feel irritated by them.
-And many other such benefits in a similar vein.
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TL;DR: employees want the benefits that unions negotiated with companies (job security, health care) to be replaced by govt provided options instead (universal medicare, social security) and they want to be left alone to succeed and earn those stock options.
Basically, Tax me once a year and then leave me alone to work.
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Caveat: I'm not American, (or from any developed country for that matter) This is just my personal understanding from observing habits and social comments and actions of silicon valley types. E&OE.
Re: Google Had Secret Project to ‘Convince’ Employees ‘That Unions Suck’
#219Imputing altruistic morals to profit-seeking entities and then continually being surprised and offended when companies act shady puts employees in a pointlessly weak position. Instead, treat the relationship as adversarial and come ready for battle every day against the legal structure designed to exploit you for the benefit of distant shareholders. There is no shame in fighting for yourself. You are worth it.
> treat the relationship as adversarial and come ready for battle every day against the legal structure designed to exploit you for the benefit of distant shareholders
Exploit you with industry leading pay and perks?
Unions are designed to balance out monopolistic / low pay / highly geographical companies like large auto manufacturers or airlines. There is so much competitive hiring in tech, it’s one of the easiest careers to switch companies if you don’t like who you work for.
You’re not “free” under a union either, you’re just swapping one boss for another. Except now your new boss wants a cut of your paycheck, for you to be a nameless cog in the system who has to put in time instead of effort and for you to be willing to go without pay for a period of time if they tell you to, while putting up with the same (or worse) bullying and intimidation tactics if you disagree.
Unions are great in some context, but for white collar careers with competitive pay and hiring practices in place, I can’t see it working out well, especially now that you can work remotely at most companies and literally choose any modern, remote-friendly tech company / startup within a few time zones of you.
Re: Google Had Secret Project to ‘Convince’ Employees ‘That Unions Suck’
#220It’s a real shame that the middle and upper classes in the US have abandoned having their teens work in favor of various, expensive, college application boosting fluff. I went to work at McDonalds at age 15 and was part of a union. I have direct experience with what that is like. I don’t need to get my knowledge on the subject from flamewars between people pushing ideological agendas (most of whom themselves have app…
Shh, every time those of us who have been in actual unions and actually had terrible experiences voice our opinions we get downvoted into oblivion. It's not worth it, m8.
So the current arrangement of service workers being paid slave wages and given disgusting conditions is working fine?