I mean Google is genuinely evil, but unions do suck. UAW, NEA, and AFL-CIO have been absolutely terrible for their respective industries.
Google Had Secret Project to ‘Convince’ Employees ‘That Unions Suck’
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Re: Google Had Secret Project to ‘Convince’ Employees ‘That Unions Suck’
#112Earlier quoted context omitted.
I believe unions are actually necessary. Necessary evil at times or not, it's a human right to have a union. I've never been in a union, but my wife is. And I've worked as management with unions in a factory setting. It was fine, actually. The company I worked for that was unionized was the best, most efficient corporation that I've ever seen. In fact it was a superior there that told me, when I was more anti-union,…
“All that said, unions should also be sector-wide not worksite based.” That’s how it works in Germany and it’s much better than the per company unions in the US. Workers also have a seat on the board of directors by law which also helps balancing things a little. The capitalists and CEOs still make plenty of money within that arrangement, companies are competitive on the world market so it seems to work.
Aye. My friends in Germany (well, Austria at least) tell me there are no shortage of jobs in Alemannia either. Stifling the economy hasn't happened. I definitely have looked to them for inspiration there. As well as Spain and Italy for their gov't funding of worker cooperatives. Which I think is probably an even better answer to a balanced system, but I'm afraid too many people don't have the mind or focus to make worker co-ops work well on the whole. Definitely a few ideas from Europe though that if they're all embraced, will make a significant difference.
Re: Google Had Secret Project to ‘Convince’ Employees ‘That Unions Suck’
#113Imputing altruistic morals to profit-seeking entities and then continually being surprised and offended when companies act shady puts employees in a pointlessly weak position. Instead, treat the relationship as adversarial and come ready for battle every day against the legal structure designed to exploit you for the benefit of distant shareholders. There is no shame in fighting for yourself. You are worth it.
Altruistic expectations, no. But I seem to recall a time (up until perhaps 15 years ago) when Google would not have been expected to engage in such blatantly Machiavellian tactics as placing fake op-eds. Nowadays though, I don't put anything past Google.
Sure, but to think only Google changed and employees and society at large did not seems untrue to me. Similarly it is difficult for me to see that Google is cause of all these changes. Afterall there were thousands of employees who created this vast user tracking mechanism happily for more money.
To think it is just Google CEO/Founders/Executives who forced this "Evil" stuff would be hilarious.
Re: Google Had Secret Project to ‘Convince’ Employees ‘That Unions Suck’
#114Imputing altruistic morals to profit-seeking entities and then continually being surprised and offended when companies act shady puts employees in a pointlessly weak position. Instead, treat the relationship as adversarial and come ready for battle every day against the legal structure designed to exploit you for the benefit of distant shareholders. There is no shame in fighting for yourself. You are worth it.
> when companies act shady
Is it shady to communicate to employees the company's view that unions aren't good? Ie, is it that much different from the standard company public statement sayijng something like "we do not think unions are in the best interests of either the employees or the company"?
This is a sincere question, as I'm not that versed in labor law and AFAIK it may even skirt legal lines to do this.
Re: Google Had Secret Project to ‘Convince’ Employees ‘That Unions Suck’
#115Earlier quoted context omitted.
I might agree, but consider my dark patterns example. The author of the article was super mad, lambasting tech companies left and right for dark patterns, called it a bunch of different synonyms of immoral, etc. His own paper, The New York Times, has a dark pattern system so pervasive that people here, on Hacker News, had to tell their bank to block payments because they couldn't get to the end of it. I've seen this…
Do you mean this story about dark patterns? https://www.nytimes.com/2019/06/24/technology/e-commerce-dar... Because the author (who does not control how NYT subscriptions work) does mention that in the story: > About 30 sites made it easy to sign up for services but particularly hard to cancel, requiring phone calls or other procedures. The Times requires people to talk with a representative online or by phone to can…
I stand corrected, she does mention it.
However, if I were still nitpicky, I would say that her little mention leaves out a ton about what the unsubscribe experience is like.
For example, she doesn't mention that The New York Times employs very few chat agents, so that waiting to cancel takes forever even on weekdays. Or that when you get through the chat, they will offer you a discount, and if you decline they'll give you another discount, and you have to decline that one too. Same understaffing and manipulation for phone calls also applies.
Or that The New York Times has different rules for California because of the law, and allows 24/7 calling and cancelling there, whereas for the rest of the US it's only standard business hours.
And so on...
Re: Google Had Secret Project to ‘Convince’ Employees ‘That Unions Suck’
#116Imputing altruistic morals to profit-seeking entities and then continually being surprised and offended when companies act shady puts employees in a pointlessly weak position. Instead, treat the relationship as adversarial and come ready for battle every day against the legal structure designed to exploit you for the benefit of distant shareholders. There is no shame in fighting for yourself. You are worth it.
What if adversarial systems result in asymmetric arms races and the game theoretic best move is to work for a corporation that is so short sighted as to go to battle against their own employees and to work for them diligently and intelligently? Because I see a whole lot happier employees at Tesla than I do at General Motors. I'm not saying this is an all-or-nothing thing. I'd join a union if I was working for a certa…
Two of my ex-Tesla contacts said it was pretty bad experience, actually.
Re: Google Had Secret Project to ‘Convince’ Employees ‘That Unions Suck’
#117Seems to have worked amazingly well based on all the times I recall reading the comments of stories posted here involving unions.
Campaigns aren't really necessary. There's plenty of history and first hand experience to go along with it.
No question unions led to many improvements historically in the lives of American workers, but they're also responsible for a lot of problems (including causing many businesses to close entirely). In many cases their tactics have been questionable.
Sometimes those demands lead to a lot of long term side effects for all of us too. Want to know why your healthcare goes through your employer? Unions. Maybe you see that as a good thing? Maybe not? But unions are the reason it's there.
In a software industry that's seen dramatic increases in demand and compensation, it's also questionable why people would even see a need? What is supposed to be the big benefit in this field that pays well, offers great flexibility in hours and location, cushy benefits and numerous opportunities for personal development?
Re: Google Had Secret Project to ‘Convince’ Employees ‘That Unions Suck’
#118Yeah, let's focus on the company that pays their employees 15x minimum wage and has top tier vacation, healthcare, and maternity/paternity leave.
Unions also don't need to be used for personal compensation and benefits. Plenty of software unions fighting for the ethical interests of the employees, which is an area where Google leaves a lot to be desired.
> Plenty of software unions fighting for the ethical interests of the employees
My country has strong unions (industry wide), yet any employee or group of employees who would engage in that sort of activism, unrelated to bettering work conditions or compensation negotiation, for instance trying to dictate their boss who they should or shouldn't do business with purely for political reasons or affiliations, would be deemed insubordinate and would be fired, lawfully.
Re: Google Had Secret Project to ‘Convince’ Employees ‘That Unions Suck’
#119Seems to have worked amazingly well based on all the times I recall reading the comments of stories posted here involving unions.
Others here seem to be speculating that it has to do with the number of business owners here, but I don't think that paints the entire picture.
I'm a single guy who's a senior software engineer with no one depending on him, and I've never had difficulty finding a job (quite the contrary), hence the benefit of being unionized doesn't outweigh the negatives. If an employer mistreats me, then I leave. It's that simple.
And yes, Poindexter J. Smartypants, not everyone has it "as good" as I. For some, unionization might be a real benefit, especially if they are working a job that is physically taxing and where the employer has more leverage. I am not disputing this fact.
In much of tech, however, especially if you are at all adjacent to Big Tech, the employee has more leverage over the employer than in many other fields. Many software engineers are in a similar position to mine, and even the ones who aren't likely need the employer much less than the employer needs the employee.
As much as I've heard great things about being a Google employee, I don't think Google would be concerned about unionization if they were as terrific as is often claimed. Perhaps you don't have to work for Google if they suck. The solution to working somewhere crummy, if the negotiation stage fails, is to leave. Even if you're the worst engineer who ever lived, you'll find another job, and probably a better one.
I went off on a bit of a tangent there, but I don't think the anti-union perspective is as simple as to be explained by corporate propaganda or the HN bubble. If someone tried to sell unionization to me in my position as a software engineer, it would only come off as an added cost with for nothing I would personally be interested in benefiting from, and I don't believe I'm an oddball in that regard.
Re: Google Had Secret Project to ‘Convince’ Employees ‘That Unions Suck’
#120Earlier quoted context omitted.
Altruistic expectations, no. But I seem to recall a time (up until perhaps 15 years ago) when Google would not have been expected to engage in such blatantly Machiavellian tactics as placing fake op-eds. Nowadays though, I don't put anything past Google.
Were those expectations based on real observations, or did Google just get lucky with PR from the jump?
A real Googler can perhaps comment better than I. But in my hazy recollection, there did seem to be a time, long before the Andy Rubin payout, when the "Don't be evil" slogan was not quite the perverse caricature that it has become today.