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Milan confirms new cycling network linking 80% of the city to bike paths

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Re: Milan confirms new cycling network linking 80% of the city to bike paths

#91

Post by mdrzn »

taude wrote: post #87

Bikes are a pretty big part of Italian transport, or at least more so than any other place I've been other than Amsterdam. My girlfriend lived in a small town about 1.5 hours outside of Milan for a year, and was surprised by the bike path system that linked all the towns together around Lake Garda, and how old some of the people were who were riding to visit friends and family. Literally, age wasn't a reason to not r…

Italian here: good weather, bikes are kinda cheap, why wouldn't you bike often? The more you bike, the better the infrastructure gets around you.

Re: Milan confirms new cycling network linking 80% of the city to bike paths

#92

Post by mathieuh »

tosser0001 wrote: post #72
mathieuh wrote: post #52

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I have the opposite opinion of painted-line bike paths: I'd rather they not be there at all. If they are there I feel forced to use them by drivers punishment passing me, despite the fact that the so-called bike lanes are full of glass, potholes and cars. If they aren't there I feel like I get treated with more patience when I ride in my normal road position, about 75 cm from the kerb.

I feel like I must be in a distinct minority because I personally prefer painted bike lanes over any other alternative. It's pretty rare in my own experience to have cars ignoring or being impatient with them (maybe because I like in a fairly bike-friendly city) I also don't like getting stuck behind really slow people in physically separate lanes where there's no room to pass.

We have 200 m total of segregated bike paths in my city so I don't have too much of an opinion on them.

My complaint is the feeling of being forced to use them when they are the dirtiest and most dangerous part of the road. They are just dashed white lines that were designed by someone who drove down the street in a Transit van once.

Since I've been moved to WFH I exclusively cycle on country roads, I feel like if we had more segregated bike paths in the city I wouldn't mind being stuck behind people, I feel like commuting or cycling into town is a different thing from cycling for exercise or as a sport.

I live in a country where cycling as a mode of transport is basically non-existent, 95% of the people I see on bikes are on road bikes and wearing lycra, so it's possible I'd feel differently about segregated lanes if there more of a cycling-as-transport culture here.

Re: Milan confirms new cycling network linking 80% of the city to bike paths

#93

Post by 999900000999 »

Eric_WVGG wrote: post #67
999900000999 wrote: post #63

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm fairly anti-car myself, But factor in cycling is not practical transportation for most people. It targets a certain demographic, people who have the physical ability to actually cycle. What about those who cannot, what about disabled people? Even if you are fit, anything more that 10 miles a day is difficult. I'm a massive fan of public transit, however, as an American this means I can only live in a handful of c…

> cycling is not practical transportation for most people. It targets a certain demographic, people who have the physical ability to actually cycle. That's… most people. Like I get it, we have an obesity epidemic, but fat people can ride bicycles. It's not unusual. And a lot of them start shedding pounds fast once you get them out of the automated wheeled easy-chairs we call "cars."

For myself cycling takes about twice as long. Assuming a peak physical condition, then driving.

Taking the metro is a bit faster than cycling, I consider myself to be an okay shape. I still need to lose about 20 lb to get to where I want to be, and I still don't think I'd be up to the challenge of hopping on a bike for all my commuting needs.

If you want to propose something, you have to factor in what people are willing to actually do. The typical overweight American, it's not going to be open to biking 4 hours a day to get to and from work.

Re: Milan confirms new cycling network linking 80% of the city to bike paths

#94

Post by tda »

vishnugupta wrote: post #84
MomoXenosaga wrote: post #43

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In Holland they learned the hard way that you have to physically cordon off half of every road for bicycles. But you have to remember that just putting some paint on the pavement is a lot cheaper so that's what the government tries first. The reason why roads were taken back by Dutch cyclists and pedestrians is that they never stopped doing it. At some dark moment in the 1970s the number of children run over by cars…

I lived in the NL for a year. Their road ways are a work of art. I can go on and on about their beauty, utility all day long. I mean look at this [1] and this [2] for instance. [1] https://imgur.com/aEwTSm0 [2] https://imgur.com/4Lreaar

Those are pictures of a Cambridge roundabout, trying to imitate a Dutch roundabout. However except for very light traffic situations all (as far as I am aware) roundabouts newly constructed in the Netherlands are so called turbo-roundabouts [1]. Other than that, I agree that the standard of roads and infrastructure in the Netherlands is a fair bit higher than anywhere else I know of. Of course there are nice roads in every country, but in the Netherlands, there are almost no really bad roads, and every freeway is properly designed and maintained.

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Roundabout#Turbo_roundaboutsle... turbo-roundabouts.

Re: Milan confirms new cycling network linking 80% of the city to bike paths

#95

Post by grst »

999900000999 wrote: post #63
blamazon wrote: post #9

If you live in a region where bike infrastructure is underfunded, and car infrastructure is overfunded, it’s probable that’s because cycling is viewed as a recreational activity in your area and thus undeserving of tax dollars compared to ‘essential’ car travel. If you disagree with that, (and live in a democracy) let someone know! Find out who controls the infrastructure spending in your area and call/email them.

I'm fairly anti-car myself, But factor in cycling is not practical transportation for most people. It targets a certain demographic, people who have the physical ability to actually cycle. What about those who cannot, what about disabled people? Even if you are fit, anything more that 10 miles a day is difficult. I'm a massive fan of public transit, however, as an American this means I can only live in a handful of c…

> It targets a certain demographic, people who have the physical ability to actually cycle. What about those who cannot, what about disabled people?

So do cars! What about people who can't drive, because they are too young, too old, don't have a license, or don't own a car?

Re: Milan confirms new cycling network linking 80% of the city to bike paths

#96

Post by Doctor_Fegg »

maxwell86 wrote: post #82
Doctor_Fegg wrote: post #5

Meanwhile our idiot city (Oxford, UK) is spending £1.2m on "Quickways", which are painted lines on existing roads... guaranteed to keep cyclists 0% safe. This in the face of national Government guidance in favour of physical segregation from cars. (Plans at https://letstalk.oxfordshire.gov.uk/quickway-cycle-route-oxf... : the promise of "segregation where possible" in reality means about 5% of the network.) It is rea…

> It is really frustrating how highway engineers, as a profession, are unwilling to consistently learn lessons from the Netherlands in designing cycle infrastructure. These decisions aren't made by highway engineers, they are made by politicians. The highway engineer puts a proper bikelane, makes the highway wider, and tells the politician that its going to cost 100 million dollars to do a couple of kms. The politici…

I wish that were true but, having sat in lots of meetings with them (including an hour with the leader of the County Council last month), that's not my experience.

The highway engineers were generally trained in the 80s or thereabouts to value vehicle throughput and continuous speed as their principal outputs. So they continue to build junctions with massive corner radiuses, shared-use pedestrian/cycle paths to maximise the space available for cars, priority for turning cars at side-road crossings, and so on.

Here in Oxfordshire you could describe the situation as "officer capture" - the officers continue to design dreck, and the elected politicians aren't (yet) strong enough to reject it.

Re: Milan confirms new cycling network linking 80% of the city to bike paths

#97

Post by globular-toast »

Doctor_Fegg wrote: post #5

Meanwhile our idiot city (Oxford, UK) is spending £1.2m on "Quickways", which are painted lines on existing roads... guaranteed to keep cyclists 0% safe. This in the face of national Government guidance in favour of physical segregation from cars. (Plans at https://letstalk.oxfordshire.gov.uk/quickway-cycle-route-oxf... : the promise of "segregation where possible" in reality means about 5% of the network.) It is rea…

I've pretty much given up on cycling in the UK. I drive now. It's just not safe or fun any more.

The problem is car dominance. 20mph speed limits are flagrantly ignored everywhere, even right next to schools etc. Most drivers have zero experience on the road except for in a car. Cars are getting bigger and bigger and more and more powerful. Streets are lined with cars. Pavements are filled with cars. It's cars everywhere. We've a long way to go before even stopping the tide, let alone turning it around.

Even when Netherlands style infrastructure is introduced in the UK it's a laughable failure. It ends up making things worse. See the Dutch style roundabout in Cambridge, for example. It turns out you can't change people's behaviour by painting a few lines on the road.

Re: Milan confirms new cycling network linking 80% of the city to bike paths

#98

Post by globular-toast »

lbriner wrote: post #46
Doctor_Fegg wrote: post #5

Meanwhile our idiot city (Oxford, UK) is spending £1.2m on "Quickways", which are painted lines on existing roads... guaranteed to keep cyclists 0% safe. This in the face of national Government guidance in favour of physical segregation from cars. (Plans at https://letstalk.oxfordshire.gov.uk/quickway-cycle-route-oxf... : the promise of "segregation where possible" in reality means about 5% of the network.) It is rea…

I think it's tricky really. The only way it can work well is if a council starts closing certain roads to motor traffic or to through-traffic but this does cause a knock-on effect that is not easily fixed. There are lots of people who can't realistically use public transport (at least not until it is better etc.) and so if they are completely screwed by traffic decisions then that isn't really fair. However, what the…

> There are lots of people who can't realistically use public transport

What kind of people can't use public transport but can drive a private car?

Re: Milan confirms new cycling network linking 80% of the city to bike paths

#99

Post by Schroedingers2c »

eatonphil wrote: post #45
Schroedingers2c wrote: post #22

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Ah, the ol' Oxford cycle "lanes". Where (if they exist) the paths themselves are bumpier than the Netherlands, and every few dozen meters you are greeted by a water drain or a manhole. In addition you have quite busy rush hours in the mornings and evenings. I moved from Oxford to the Netherlands a couple years ago and let me tell you: cycling here is a bliss.

Is "a bliss" a typo or is that a (UK) English way of speech? I'm American and I've never seen someone say something is a bliss just that something is bliss (no indefinite article).

Frankly, I have no idea. I'm not a native English speaker myself, just picked that phrase up.

Re: Milan confirms new cycling network linking 80% of the city to bike paths

#100

Post by vishnugupta »

tda wrote: post #94
vishnugupta wrote: post #84

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I lived in the NL for a year. Their road ways are a work of art. I can go on and on about their beauty, utility all day long. I mean look at this [1] and this [2] for instance. [1] https://imgur.com/aEwTSm0 [2] https://imgur.com/4Lreaar

Those are pictures of a Cambridge roundabout, trying to imitate a Dutch roundabout. However except for very light traffic situations all (as far as I am aware) roundabouts newly constructed in the Netherlands are so called turbo-roundabouts [1]. Other than that, I agree that the standard of roads and infrastructure in the Netherlands is a fair bit higher than anywhere else I know of. Of course there are nice roads in…

> Those are picture of a Cambridge roundabout,

I realised it minutes after posting it when I noticed the driving was on the left (as opposed to right in NL) :-). The architecture is very close to those in the NL though which fooled my lazy eyes. Pedestrian islands, enabling free movement of cyclists with clear markings etc.,

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