Hacker News Board Hacker News, browsed like a classic message board
Live data from Hacker News

Milan confirms new cycling network linking 80% of the city to bike paths

road.cc

Post reply on HN
Print view View original

41–50 of 223 posts

Re: Milan confirms new cycling network linking 80% of the city to bike paths

#41

Post by eCa »

pmontra wrote: post #18

If any of you have been to Milan, the inner circle of the image [1] is more or less the city boundary. That path could be anything between 70 to 100 km according to how they'll design it. I had no problems cycling 100+ km around the city during the second quasi-lockdown of one winter ago. The grey area is what's called "città metropolitana" now, basically the old province of Milan including more than 100 of other cit…

I would have thought that the inner circle would be the Via Santa Sofia-Via Senato circle road.

I’ve never been to the city-proper, only the train station, but it seems strange that any of the missing 20% would be in the city center.

Re: Milan confirms new cycling network linking 80% of the city to bike paths

#42

Post by kawsper »

lobochrome wrote: post #20
Doctor_Fegg wrote: post #5

Meanwhile our idiot city (Oxford, UK) is spending £1.2m on "Quickways", which are painted lines on existing roads... guaranteed to keep cyclists 0% safe. This in the face of national Government guidance in favour of physical segregation from cars. (Plans at https://letstalk.oxfordshire.gov.uk/quickway-cycle-route-oxf... : the promise of "segregation where possible" in reality means about 5% of the network.) It is rea…

I'm a road biker and would love fully separated bikeways wherever possible. The scheme in Milano sounds exciting and full of the right spirit. That being said, painted lines, in reality, do positively affect safety, both perceived (at least by me) and in accident statistics. Rethinking our cities towards multi-modal transportation will take time. I believe maximalist positions ("only physically separated bike lanes a…

Casey Neistats video about painted bike path obstructions in New York comes to mind: https://youtu.be/bzE-IMaegzQ (2011)

Re: Milan confirms new cycling network linking 80% of the city to bike paths

#43

Post by MomoXenosaga »

Doctor_Fegg wrote: post #5

Meanwhile our idiot city (Oxford, UK) is spending £1.2m on "Quickways", which are painted lines on existing roads... guaranteed to keep cyclists 0% safe. This in the face of national Government guidance in favour of physical segregation from cars. (Plans at https://letstalk.oxfordshire.gov.uk/quickway-cycle-route-oxf... : the promise of "segregation where possible" in reality means about 5% of the network.) It is rea…

In Holland they learned the hard way that you have to physically cordon off half of every road for bicycles. But you have to remember that just putting some paint on the pavement is a lot cheaper so that's what the government tries first.

The reason why roads were taken back by Dutch cyclists and pedestrians is that they never stopped doing it. At some dark moment in the 1970s the number of children run over by cars was too much for society to ignore. It was a battle won by blood.

Re: Milan confirms new cycling network linking 80% of the city to bike paths

#44

Post by trosi »

Giving how well public transportation works in Milan and how expensive it is to own and park a car in the city center, I am surprised at how many people still insist on driving.

Personally I can't wait for reserved bike lanes everywhere. Milan is small in size if compared to other European main cities, you could probably bike across the city in half an hour

Re: Milan confirms new cycling network linking 80% of the city to bike paths

#45

Post by eatonphil »

Schroedingers2c wrote: post #22
Doctor_Fegg wrote: post #5

Meanwhile our idiot city (Oxford, UK) is spending £1.2m on "Quickways", which are painted lines on existing roads... guaranteed to keep cyclists 0% safe. This in the face of national Government guidance in favour of physical segregation from cars. (Plans at https://letstalk.oxfordshire.gov.uk/quickway-cycle-route-oxf... : the promise of "segregation where possible" in reality means about 5% of the network.) It is rea…

Ah, the ol' Oxford cycle "lanes". Where (if they exist) the paths themselves are bumpier than the Netherlands, and every few dozen meters you are greeted by a water drain or a manhole. In addition you have quite busy rush hours in the mornings and evenings. I moved from Oxford to the Netherlands a couple years ago and let me tell you: cycling here is a bliss.

Is "a bliss" a typo or is that a (UK) English way of speech? I'm American and I've never seen someone say something is a bliss just that something is bliss (no indefinite article).

Re: Milan confirms new cycling network linking 80% of the city to bike paths

#46

Post by lbriner »

Doctor_Fegg wrote: post #5

Meanwhile our idiot city (Oxford, UK) is spending £1.2m on "Quickways", which are painted lines on existing roads... guaranteed to keep cyclists 0% safe. This in the face of national Government guidance in favour of physical segregation from cars. (Plans at https://letstalk.oxfordshire.gov.uk/quickway-cycle-route-oxf... : the promise of "segregation where possible" in reality means about 5% of the network.) It is rea…

I think it's tricky really. The only way it can work well is if a council starts closing certain roads to motor traffic or to through-traffic but this does cause a knock-on effect that is not easily fixed. There are lots of people who can't realistically use public transport (at least not until it is better etc.) and so if they are completely screwed by traffic decisions then that isn't really fair.

However, what they are currently trying to do by keeping the level of motor traffic and simply slotting in lanes for cycles where there is space clearly doesn't work.

I think a few places like Bristol have been a bit more forceful but they are large enough to have alternate routes for motor traffic.

Re: Milan confirms new cycling network linking 80% of the city to bike paths

#47

Post by kasey_junk »

qwerty456127 wrote: post #31

BTW the next problem we have to solve after bike paths lacking in a city are showers lacking in office buildings.

Say what you want about leed certifications one very nice aspect of them is they require bike storage & showers in addition to all the green energy requirements.

Re: Milan confirms new cycling network linking 80% of the city to bike paths

#48

Post by jhoelzel »

the_french wrote: post #13
jhoelzel wrote: post #6

Here in Berlin you can easily get with the bike through the entire city. If you survive that is a different topic, but you could if you wanted! IMHO the future lies somewhere between bikes, elon musk and the city tram. What we actually need is a vehicle that fullfills all criteria in some form. For instance: getting out of your apartment and onto one of those scooters to the next subway station where you either conne…

> But we know how that goes and nobody actually will care about the scooter enough to return or take care of it. Looking at countries like the Netherlands this is not true. Train stations have rentable bikes which are always available in sufficient quantities. > So what do we do? Uber-Tesla-Subway pods. I call it by phone, it shows up to my house, either transfers me or lets me dock with the subway and then brings me…

well its not neccesairly a pod per person but more a pod the city owns that is shared when i need it. Here in Berlin we do have bikes and scooters the like but its the same with car sharing. Sometimes you still will have to walk 15 minutes to your car (and thats the problem i mostly see with the scooters)

Re: Milan confirms new cycling network linking 80% of the city to bike paths

#49

Post by chimprich »

lobochrome wrote: post #20
Doctor_Fegg wrote: post #5

Meanwhile our idiot city (Oxford, UK) is spending £1.2m on "Quickways", which are painted lines on existing roads... guaranteed to keep cyclists 0% safe. This in the face of national Government guidance in favour of physical segregation from cars. (Plans at https://letstalk.oxfordshire.gov.uk/quickway-cycle-route-oxf... : the promise of "segregation where possible" in reality means about 5% of the network.) It is rea…

I'm a road biker and would love fully separated bikeways wherever possible. The scheme in Milano sounds exciting and full of the right spirit. That being said, painted lines, in reality, do positively affect safety, both perceived (at least by me) and in accident statistics. Rethinking our cities towards multi-modal transportation will take time. I believe maximalist positions ("only physically separated bike lanes a…

> That being said, painted lines, in reality, do positively affect safety [...] in accident statistics

Could you cite any studies to that effect? Some studies suggest painted cycle lanes are actively dangerous:

https://findingspress.org/article/18226-cycling-injury-risk-...

https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/S00014...

Re: Milan confirms new cycling network linking 80% of the city to bike paths

#50

Post by ben-schaaf »

DoingIsLearning wrote: post #23
gsliepen wrote: post #12

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In the Netherlands there are also roads with just a painted bike lane. The difference is that the whole bike lane is painted in a solid color (usually reddish). This gives a constant visual feedback to drivers. Because of the paint it is just ever so slightly raised and has a different texture than the regular asphalt, so there can be a noticable difference in sound when car tires go onto the bike lane. See for examp…

The main difference is that the decision of painting the road or segregating traffic in the Netherlands is based on traffic volume and traffic speed. High speed high traffic zones get segregate bicycle traffic. Low speed low traffic routes can cope with mixed traffic and just a side lane for bicycles. The decision of just painting over curbs for cost is the main infrastructure mistake and 'false saving' in a lot of E…

> The main difference is that the decision of painting the road or segregating traffic in the Netherlands is based on traffic volume and traffic speed. High speed high traffic zones get segregate bicycle traffic. Low speed low traffic routes can cope with mixed traffic and just a side lane for bicycles.

The current standard technically doesn't allow for bicycle gutters: Traffic should be either fully mixed on low speed, low volume streets or fully separated. Though bicycle gutters do still get made (space being the primary excuse), from what I've seen it's primarily old roads that have yet to be renewed since the standards changed.

https://bicycledutch.wordpress.com/2020/08/12/cycle-lanes-in...

Post reply on HN