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New‐onset autoimmune phenomena post‐Covid‐19 vaccination

onlinelibrary.wiley.com

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Re: New‐onset autoimmune phenomena post‐Covid‐19 vaccination

#71

Post by mellavora »

yunohn wrote: post #37
robbiep wrote: post #32

Earlier quoted context omitted.

But they aren’t in the same magnitude - for example, incidences of peri/myocarditis is 30x (at a minimum) greater in someone who has COVID vs someone vaccinated; and vaccination leads to shorter milder breakthrough infections which (should - I can’t claim to have seen a study) lead to a lower incidence compared to someone who was unvaccinated and infected

Yes, that’s my doubt as well. Until we have more unbiased studies coming out, we can’t determine the impact of these side effects. The problem with pro-vaccine propaganda is that it tells you to blindly listen to the science. The problem with that is “the science” is controlled by commercial interests and profit margins. It’s like telling everyone democracy is the One True Way and we end up in last-stage capitalism.

I'm responding with anger, thus I ask for mercy and understanding.

I used to be one of the authors of that science. I spent 7 years of my life working on it.

For this my take-home pay was close to the poverty line. I was qualified for a ~500K/year job at FANG.

That's a heavy sacrifice, not commercial interest and profit margins.

Re: New‐onset autoimmune phenomena post‐Covid‐19 vaccination

#72

Post by manwe150 »

refurb wrote: post #57
robbiep wrote: post #35

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You’re at a 30x (minimum) increased risk, as well as running a 0.5-2% chance of dying depending on your state of health. If you’re less than 18, you have a higher risk of type 1 OR type 2 diabetes. Anyone who willingly runs that risk in the light of a (let’s face it, extremely safe) alternative is making some sort of strange calculus that is not in any way rational

Source for 30x risk of autoimmune disorder? And no, the floor of fatality is not 0.5%, you’re off by an order of magnitude (too high) at least. And source for risk of diabetes. You’re throwing a lot of “facts” around that don’t seem to be true.

Nearly 0.2% of the US has died of COVID, so he can’t be that far off on his estimate, not knowing the age of yourself or other readers.

Re: New‐onset autoimmune phenomena post‐Covid‐19 vaccination

#73

Post by mauvehaus »

core-utility wrote: post #31
alexmcc81 wrote: post #24

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Thanks you for this thoughtful response. I chose to be vaccinated and unfortunately have suffered serious consequences like a very small number of other people will statistically. It's been pretty disheartening to see that sharing anything negative about vaccines, even those warned about by medical officials, leads to very negative reactions from people (being told to shut up, being censored/downvoted online etc). I…

That is awful to hear. I unfortunately think this entire debacle will leave a lasting distrust of our medical providers and institutions. Vaccine hesitant are already distrustful, and I believe in the coming months/year as more stand up to the censorship of these real issues, a growing number of vaccinated will feel mislead and lied to (whether justified or not). The only recovery path I can see is the return of a st…

A good first step might be making sure the population is educated sufficiently to identify and weigh the risks between a 1 in 1,000,000 side effect, the disease the vaccine protects against, and the pure bullshit peddled by fear mongers.

Right now, we have people in the US who still believe that Covid is no worse than a bad case of the flu. All the evidence (at least for the pre Omicron variants) suggests that the reality, as viewed by death rate, is orders of magnitude more bleak.

Re: New‐onset autoimmune phenomena post‐Covid‐19 vaccination

#74

Post by jtc331 »

elif wrote: post #61

They should have some kind of "can't remove from headline" disclaimers for papers like this to keep them from fueling idiocy. This paper lays out in it's intro that it will make no attempt to find causation, yet in media this headline will be used almost exclusively to prove that point.

And yet also it’s standard medical practice to assume causation (for the purpose of not causing harm) when there exists correlation of adverse events with new treatments until proven otherwise.

Re: New‐onset autoimmune phenomena post‐Covid‐19 vaccination

#75

Post by yunohn »

mellavora wrote: post #71
yunohn wrote: post #37

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes, that’s my doubt as well. Until we have more unbiased studies coming out, we can’t determine the impact of these side effects. The problem with pro-vaccine propaganda is that it tells you to blindly listen to the science. The problem with that is “the science” is controlled by commercial interests and profit margins. It’s like telling everyone democracy is the One True Way and we end up in last-stage capitalism.

I'm responding with anger, thus I ask for mercy and understanding. I used to be one of the authors of that science. I spent 7 years of my life working on it. For this my take-home pay was close to the poverty line. I was qualified for a ~500K/year job at FANG. That's a heavy sacrifice, not commercial interest and profit margins.

Your anger is misplaced. You assume I’m talking about individuals; I’m blaming capitalist corporations. Science is not a person, it is a process that involves innumerable functions of people - only one of which are the actual scientists.

A great example is the Boeing MAX scandal, where management ignored the engineers and pushed ahead. To be clear, I’m accusing Pfizer et all of corruption. And given their history, I don’t think I’m too off the mark. Underpaid scientists like you should be angry at the corporations and administrations that stole your money.

Re: New‐onset autoimmune phenomena post‐Covid‐19 vaccination

#76

Post by refurb »

manwe150 wrote: post #72
refurb wrote: post #57

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Source for 30x risk of autoimmune disorder? And no, the floor of fatality is not 0.5%, you’re off by an order of magnitude (too high) at least. And source for risk of diabetes. You’re throwing a lot of “facts” around that don’t seem to be true.

Nearly 0.2% of the US has died of COVID, so he can’t be that far off on his estimate, not knowing the age of yourself or other readers.

He said the lower bound was 0.5%.

So as a healthy 30 year you’re saying my risk of death is 0.5%?

And note the CDC said they’ll be providing data on who “died with covid” versus who “died from covid”.

Re: New‐onset autoimmune phenomena post‐Covid‐19 vaccination

#77

Post by fabian2k »

ageitgey wrote: post #15

This is a pretty non-controversial paper and doesn't contain anything shocking or previously unknown, but the title has the potential to cause controversy. Here's my quick summary: - Previous vaccines for HPV, Hepatitis B and Flu are known to (rarely) trigger or worsen autoimmune diseases such as Guillain-Barré syndrome. - Lots of new Covid vaccines have been created globally using a wide variety of technologies (mRN…

For VITT the evidence is pretty conclusive as far as I know, but this is a side effect particular to the AZ and J&J vaccines. I don't think any of the other ones except Guillain-Barré on the list have occured often enough to be able to really investigate causality, and they're not on the list of known side-effects on the label.

This is a review, it's not even trying to quantify anything or judge risks. This is an overview of possible mechanisms for thes autoimmune diseases in this situation.

Re: New‐onset autoimmune phenomena post‐Covid‐19 vaccination

#78

Post by jtc331 »

junon wrote: post #42
c7DJTLrn wrote: post #39

Quoted post unavailable.

> you need to know every possible side effect beforehand This is impossible and this stance comes from a complete misunderstanding about how vaccine studies work. Science has, in fact, prevailed here.

No post body was provided.

Re: New‐onset autoimmune phenomena post‐Covid‐19 vaccination

#79

Post by rjsw »

raverbashing wrote: post #6

Anyone that's worried about autoimmune phenomena after vaccination should look at autoimmune phenomena post Covid infection

Maybe the people affected would have got the same autoimmune reaction from both vaccination and infection.

For me, the post-viral symptoms have been a lot worse than the virus itself.

Re: New‐onset autoimmune phenomena post‐Covid‐19 vaccination

#80

Post by alexmcc81 »

robbiep wrote: post #52
alexmcc81 wrote: post #41

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Well I’m taking a stand against the anecdote then I am not generalising, just providing a single data point about my local health service which is very relevant to my treatment. Even if it an outlier or does not match your colleagues experiences it does not make it less true for me. I recommend reading the top comment by walterbell. Not everything is an attack on medicine/science. While it's important to keep discu…

If you read my comment you will see that it is not, in fact an attack on you and if I had not made the unfortunate use of the word ‘claim’ and instead said ‘I’d like to counter your anecdote with one of my own …… and lets wait until there’s more data’ then we wouldn’t be having this thread. As it stands I apologise and also retract my snappy comment that you are replying to above. The problem with anecdote, whichever…

I agree and I really hope that in the long term the data proves any side effects are extremely rare and my experience is an outlier.

The way the public conversation has unfolded in this crisis has been extremely disappointing to say the least and I understand your position. All the misinformation, conspiracy theories and politicising has made any real conversation impossible. Anything can and will be used to undermine confidence in vaccines. Unfortunately that means genuine issues get bundled in with the untrue in most peoples minds in my experience at least. I really don't envy anyone in the medical field at the moment when facts are twisted/discarded and people are dying as a result.

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