Hacker News Board Hacker News, browsed like a classic message board
Live data from Hacker News

Obama's job aid plan - $10,000 to $13,000 in assistance for entrepreneurship

moneyland.time.com

Post reply on HN
Print view View original

11–20 of 172 posts

Re: Obama's job aid plan - $10,000 to $13,000 in assistance for entrepreneurship

#11

Post by anamax »

yellowbkpk wrote: post #9
fredBuddemeyer wrote: post #6

genius. who needs voluntary transactions live venture capital or angels, what have they ever done? instead lets take money from everyone (if they don't like it we can lock them in a cage) and then give it to others who we decide are worthy.

Outside of Silicon Valley (and a few other hot spots maybe) "voluntary transactions" aren't happening, so the government feels the need to step in.

Yes, govt feels the need to step in. The relevant question is whether said "step in" makes any sense.

If there really are such wonderful opportunities, why aren't you funding them?

Re: Obama's job aid plan - $10,000 to $13,000 in assistance for entrepreneurship

#12

Post by TomOfTTB »

jeremymcanally wrote: post #7

The ignorance displayed in the comments on that article is scary. It's quite obvious a lot of people have never been in the position to actually need this sort of aid before, so it's easy to knock everyone using it as "an illegal" or "lazy." Of course people will abuse this, too, just like they abuse the unemployment insurance we have now. But to me, the net positives that come out of this will outweigh the (probably…

First, who said "an illegal" or "lazy"? Searching the page I only find your comment using those terms.

Second, "the system is already being abused so lets allow further abuse" isn't really a great argument.

(For the record I'm actually in favor of this I just don't think your tone is necessary and I think it discourages anyone who might disagree)

Re: Obama's job aid plan - $10,000 to $13,000 in assistance for entrepreneurship

#13

Post by cheez »

fredBuddemeyer wrote: post #6

genius. who needs voluntary transactions live venture capital or angels, what have they ever done? instead lets take money from everyone (if they don't like it we can lock them in a cage) and then give it to others who we decide are worthy.

I don't know why people downvote this. There are two problems when you have a democratic system of government (the US is no longer really a republic IMO):

1. Special interest groups 2. Involuntary taxation

The two combined make for some quite uncomfortable moral hazards. If you pay taxes in the US, you are paying for continued aggression. Or education you'd rather provide yourself. Or any number of things that you don't agree with. For every citizen, there are just a few government services they use over and above the common services everyone else uses as well (not listing them, numerous).

The majority of money that the government collects from the citizen is not spent on the citizen themselves.

"Sure", you say, "It's to help the poor!". As Milton Friedman said: if government could solve the problem of poverty, then why are there still poor people?

In my locality, there are instances of local governments spending $60K per poor family of four annually. Only $20K actually got to the family. The rest becomes overhead.

I think it's quite valid to say that the government should not be involving themselves in commerce in this manner because then they become indispensable. Not because they are useful, but because then they fund a set of uneconomical businesses that no one else would invest in.

TL;DR: don't downvote because you don't agree.

Re: Obama's job aid plan - $10,000 to $13,000 in assistance for entrepreneurship

#14

Post by tibbon »

maratd wrote: post #5
becomevocal wrote: post #2

This seems really cool and all, but what are we talking about in terms of wait time and hurdles to jump through? Anyone know details? I've looked into and seen others go through grant processes and they are often terrible. Hope it isn't similar.

This isn't a grant. It's a modification of the rules for unemployment insurance. It's a good change. It allows you to use unemployment insurance to pursue your own business for about half a year. Of course, for you to be eligible for unemployment insurance, you had to have been employed at some point and gotten fired. It's also a paltry sum. But, again, any movement in the right direction is a plus.

Strange question, but couldn't you always do this?

From my understanding, unemployment insurance only required that you take no/low salary from a company. You were still able to receive money from capital-gains/investments.

Start a consulting firm/startup, pay yourself a $1 salary with stock options. Don't exercise these options for a long time (when you stop UE). I read the UE stuff time and time again in Massachusetts and kept looking for something to say that I couldn't do this but couldn't find anything that said so explicitly. I didn't end up doing consulting (just more learning/studying), but it would have worked and been legal right?

Re: Obama's job aid plan - $10,000 to $13,000 in assistance for entrepreneurship

#16

Post by maratd »

tibbon wrote: post #14
maratd wrote: post #5

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This isn't a grant. It's a modification of the rules for unemployment insurance. It's a good change. It allows you to use unemployment insurance to pursue your own business for about half a year. Of course, for you to be eligible for unemployment insurance, you had to have been employed at some point and gotten fired. It's also a paltry sum. But, again, any movement in the right direction is a plus.

Strange question, but couldn't you always do this? From my understanding, unemployment insurance only required that you take no/low salary from a company. You were still able to receive money from capital-gains/investments. Start a consulting firm/startup, pay yourself a $1 salary with stock options. Don't exercise these options for a long time (when you stop UE). I read the UE stuff time and time again in Massachuse…

> Strange question, but couldn't you always do this?

No. For you to receive unemployment insurance you must prove that you are actively seeking a job.

I suppose you could have invested the time into looking for a job while spending the rest of it starting a business, but this will provide you with an explicit option to start your own business. That will encourage more people to do so.

Re: Obama's job aid plan - $10,000 to $13,000 in assistance for entrepreneurship

#17

Post by krschultz »

fredBuddemeyer wrote: post #6

genius. who needs voluntary transactions live venture capital or angels, what have they ever done? instead lets take money from everyone (if they don't like it we can lock them in a cage) and then give it to others who we decide are worthy.

Other option for people who don't like it: leave the country.

You wouldn't know it listening to most people complaining but unemployment insurance was not something implemented in 2008, it goes back to the 1930s. That should have been plenty of warning for you to find a place with a tax rate and entitlement system to your liking. Sorry, there aren't a lot of options in the 1st world without taxes and entitlments, but that must just be a coincidence.

Re: Obama's job aid plan - $10,000 to $13,000 in assistance for entrepreneurship

#18

Post by tibbon »

maratd wrote: post #16
tibbon wrote: post #14

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Strange question, but couldn't you always do this? From my understanding, unemployment insurance only required that you take no/low salary from a company. You were still able to receive money from capital-gains/investments. Start a consulting firm/startup, pay yourself a $1 salary with stock options. Don't exercise these options for a long time (when you stop UE). I read the UE stuff time and time again in Massachuse…

> Strange question, but couldn't you always do this? No. For you to receive unemployment insurance you must prove that you are actively seeking a job. I suppose you could have invested the time into looking for a job while spending the rest of it starting a business, but this will provide you with an explicit option to start your own business. That will encourage more people to do so.

Right. Let's say I was searching for a job, but doing Rails work on the side (not a startup per-se, but you know... doing startupy like work). I could spent 1 day per week looking for a job, and 4 to 6 days a week coding for people. All the proceeds go into a consulting firm which I hold ownership of.

But yes, it is good for this to be official now.

Re: Obama's job aid plan - $10,000 to $13,000 in assistance for entrepreneurship

#19

Post by ori_b »

anamax wrote: post #11
yellowbkpk wrote: post #9

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Outside of Silicon Valley (and a few other hot spots maybe) "voluntary transactions" aren't happening, so the government feels the need to step in.

Yes, govt feels the need to step in. The relevant question is whether said "step in" makes any sense. If there really are such wonderful opportunities, why aren't you funding them?

I don't have enough cash on hand.

Re: Obama's job aid plan - $10,000 to $13,000 in assistance for entrepreneurship

#20

Post by krschultz »

cheez wrote: post #13
fredBuddemeyer wrote: post #6

genius. who needs voluntary transactions live venture capital or angels, what have they ever done? instead lets take money from everyone (if they don't like it we can lock them in a cage) and then give it to others who we decide are worthy.

I don't know why people downvote this. There are two problems when you have a democratic system of government (the US is no longer really a republic IMO): 1. Special interest groups 2. Involuntary taxation The two combined make for some quite uncomfortable moral hazards. If you pay taxes in the US, you are paying for continued aggression. Or education you'd rather provide yourself. Or any number of things that you do…

I downvoted it because it was a horribly written political cheapshot. I don't necessarily disagree with the sentiment but the quality of the post was terrible. Politics doesn't really belong on HN anyway so if you are going to inject it into a discussion it has to be intelligent (ignoring my snarky response to him that will likely garner downvotes as well).
Post reply on HN