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Fucking Sue Me

pud.com

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Re: Fucking Sue Me

#121

Post by JoeAltmaier »

mgkimsal wrote: post #59
semanticist wrote: post #38

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Being employee #1 is fine, but you should be asking questions like 'how much money do you have?' and 'when will it run out?' I've been employee #1 and in the position of having to find another gig due to the company running out of money. It sucked, but I was prepared for it since I knew what our runway was and what our situation with funding was.

You might be employee #20 - they can still lie to you and tell you everything's fine, then run out of money in a matter of weeks.

Was employee # 100000 or so at Dell. Still got laid off. No security anywhere, sorry, its all an illusion.

Hey, may as well be an entrepreneur!

Re: Fucking Sue Me

#122

Post by billswift »

willyt wrote: post #106
fleitz wrote: post #70

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why would a coder ever be held responsible for something not specified in the requirements doc? If people wanted Y2K compliant software in the 70s and 80s they should have specified it. As for multibillion dollar valuations, what's wrong with the valuations on MSFT, AAPL, GOOG? If you think the PE is crazy on LNKD, just short it. As for what VCs are willing to invest for particular companies those investments are mor…

Because it's not unreasonable to expect the coder to supply you with something which will not fail arbitrarily in 10 years for a reason which is 100% predictable. A parallel example: If an Architect designs you a building which develops a leak because of a mistake in a construction detail you would sue for the cost of repairs and damage to property. Either in contract if available or in Tort for negligence if no cont…

>Because it's not unreasonable to expect the coder to supply you with something which will not fail arbitrarily in 10 years for a reason which is 100% predictable.

Really. A coder is supposed to know that he should spend unnecessary resources (memory, mainly) to add a feature that will be needed in ten years for a program only expected to be used for five years? Most of the problems (that didn't happen is it turned out) with Y2K were because many programs that were expected to be replaced weren't. And before the mid 1990s RAM was seriously expensive, people did not buy more than necessary, "Just in Case".

Re: Fucking Sue Me

#123

Post by gyardley »

TWSS wrote: post #87

The interesting part of this from my perspective is "my dad - a lifelong entrepreneur." I recently saw that pud is a year younger than me, and we entered the job market at almost the same time with similar skill sets. Why did it take me so goddamn long to pull my head out of my ass and finally start my own company (at 35)? Perhaps pud's acceptance of risk has a genetic component, or at the very least he was brought u…

We don't necessarily need to turn to genetics to explain this.

When one of your parents is an entrepreneur, being an entrepreneur yourself is a natural and obvious option -- but when no one in your family has ever started a business, it's anything but.

When I was younger, I simply didn't think 'hey, I could start a business' when thinking of things I could do with myself.

I wouldn't be so hard on yourself. We're all products of our environment.

Re: Fucking Sue Me

#124

Post by johnyzee »

esk wrote: post #64
davidst wrote: post #63

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There's another perspective that is equally true: Employee #1 is getting paid to see how a startup is created, struggles, pivots, pivots again, and eventually turns into a viable business. There is no better way to prepare yourself to be a founder than to be an early employee in a startup.

I definitely understand where you are coming from (and I didn't downvote you), but I have to disagree. That employee (we'll call her Sarah) isn't being paid to see how a startup is created; she's paying to see how a startup is created. She's paying heavily. She's losing money in the form of a lower salary compared to equivalent jobs, and she's losing money in the form of losing free-time compared to equivalent jobs.…

Not to mention that employee #1, if an engineer, is probably chained to the engine block (figuratively), toiling with keeping the machines running. He/she most likely remains in the dark when it comes to the business development and deal making that are all important for succeeding as a startup.

Re: Fucking Sue Me

#125

Post by epscylonb »

owenmarshall wrote: post #17

> Then there was the time I wanted to hire my first full time employee. I was apprehensive to do it because I only had enough money to pay him for 2 months, unless I got another client fast. > “Worry about that in 2 months,” Dad said. Speaking from the perspective of that employee, fuck you . OK, for the serious point: you may be not give a shit about risk. Good for you, you crazy risk taker! The world truly needs mo…

There is risk everywhere, getting out of bed in the morning is a risk.

Working for a start up is almost always inherently more risky than working for BigCo, regardless if you are employee number 1 or not.

Re: Fucking Sue Me

#126

Post by fredBuddemeyer »

grellas wrote: post #100

Contract reviews done by lawyers need to follow good-sense guidelines. Some contracts are routine and don't need any form of customizing. The review in such cases is minimal and can even be skipped if the routine nature of the contract is obvious or if the entrepreneur is seasoned enough to identify a clean situation without lawyer help. Most such routine contracts cover simple cases, such as a simple nda or a recurr…

tldr = Q.E.D.

Re: Fucking Sue Me

#127

Post by duncanj »

grellas wrote: post #100

Contract reviews done by lawyers need to follow good-sense guidelines. Some contracts are routine and don't need any form of customizing. The review in such cases is minimal and can even be skipped if the routine nature of the contract is obvious or if the entrepreneur is seasoned enough to identify a clean situation without lawyer help. Most such routine contracts cover simple cases, such as a simple nda or a recurr…

It sounds like the OP didn't consider putting the lawyers in the same room and requiring a contract by the end of the day. That way your rights are protected and the back-and-forth doesn't take forever.

Re: Fucking Sue Me

#128

Post by owenmarshall »

nirvana wrote: post #31
owenmarshall wrote: post #17

> Then there was the time I wanted to hire my first full time employee. I was apprehensive to do it because I only had enough money to pay him for 2 months, unless I got another client fast. > “Worry about that in 2 months,” Dad said. Speaking from the perspective of that employee, fuck you . OK, for the serious point: you may be not give a shit about risk. Good for you, you crazy risk taker! The world truly needs mo…

Pretty much all employment is risky. It doesn't matter that you have a car payment and a wife going thru graduate school. Those are financial risks you took. Your employment could end at any time. The company could be seized by the government as part of some investigation and shut down, the CEO could be hit by a bus, you could screw up in a big way and get fired. You could be hit by a brain aneurism and simply not be…

I absolutely agree. There are zero guarantees in life.

I left a reasonably stable small company to take a risk as employee #2. But where my experience may have diverged from what OP describes was in the hiring process. My new employer was very up front with the fact that, hey, it's a startup, and it might not take off. We discussed some alternative options & put some timelines in place to help reduce the risks I'd face.

Might everything fall apart tomorrow? Sure. But my company was 100% up front with me regarding my risks -- at least if we fail, we fail together.

I've had friends who have joined companies as the #1 where the owner completely misrepresented the situation of the company throughout the whole process, were burned, and are now working stable jobs that they hate. That's the biggest shame of all.

Re: Fucking Sue Me

#129

Post by owenmarshall »

vegardx wrote: post #44
lojack wrote: post #32

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's reassuring. (putting in my two weeks notice tomorrow to be employee #1)

Not to worry, they've just read the article on why you should not be the first employee in a startup, and more specifically, what terms you should not necessarily agree too. Being the first employee of a startup can be the best thing since sliced bread. You take little risk (compared to the actual owners), yet the reward is usually way better than employee number 100. Who do you think is more likely to get 1) a bumb…

Most startups don't get anywhere near employee #100. If you're in a startup that does, you'll likely be happy to be either #1 or #100.

Being #1 means you work as hard as the owners but for much less -- often you will end up making less than you'd make elsewhere.

Being an early hire seems to be about trading salary & security for experience running a business. Friends who have joined a startup early have said it's the absolute best way to learn what to do -- and many times, what not to do -- when you're starting your own company.

Of course, YMMV. I've heard from plenty of early hires that don't end up near the business side, and don't get much out of it.

Re: Fucking Sue Me

#130

Post by joev »

BoppreH wrote: post #114
willyt wrote: post #106

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Because it's not unreasonable to expect the coder to supply you with something which will not fail arbitrarily in 10 years for a reason which is 100% predictable. A parallel example: If an Architect designs you a building which develops a leak because of a mistake in a construction detail you would sue for the cost of repairs and damage to property. Either in contract if available or in Tort for negligence if no cont…

Buildings are expected to last, and cutting corners (on multi decade support, for example) is not exactly a "mistake" like the one that would spring a leak. Aside from that, where do you draw the line? If the software doesn't work with accented characters and it wasn't in the specs, do you blame the coder? Reading that common-but-not-currently-used-here file type? IPv6 support? Maybe it's because I'm a coder, but if…

Buildings also need to be maintained and retrofitted. Around here in Cambridge, there are countless residential and commercial buildings that were built before the days of electricity and air conditioning, and even plumbing in some cases. The maintenance costs often far outweigh the initial building costs, even given inflation.
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