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Simplicity of IRC

susam.net

191–200 of 250 posts

Re: Simplicity of IRC

#191
post #171
post #158

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What a perfect way to describe the situation. Imagine an enterprise disallowing all VCS service providers -- whether hosted on-prem or cloud -- because they use SSH instead of HTTP.

You think you're joking but I've lived through exactly that. Reason: SSH cannot be examined by a HTTP proxy. The moment we raised that HTTP CONNECT is a TCP passthrough thus equivalent we got to install a bespoke root certificate on our machines for the proxy to MITM every single connection.

Yep. Sounds like a common-enough pattern then. (I wasn't joking in my post).

Re: Simplicity of IRC

#192
IRC was fun. I do miss that period of time (and being a teenager who could learn things very quickly). I'm not particularly nostalgic about the protocol or the user experience though. Maybe we will find a good middle ground some day, fast native clients with media rich experience and great searchability. I use Teams every day and find it to be just fine for most things.

Re: Simplicity of IRC

#193
post #70

I used IRC for gaming around 2004 - fond memories! I recently tried Discord to find programming communities but I just don't get it. When you join a server you are automatically subscribed to all the channels. And apparently you can't leave them, you can only 'silence' them by manually doing that for each channel. After a few days I just gave up as I could not keep up with all the notifications.

Discord is horrible and I don't understand why so many people like it so much. First thing I do when joining a new "server" is to mute all and any broadcast (@everyone/@here/roles) mentions. Broadcast mentions should have never been invented.

People like it because people enjoy ownership and power. That and it's way more user friendly for newcomers. Also before Zoom got popular, it was the best voice chat for a while.

Re: Simplicity of IRC

#195
post #125

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It doesn't prevent clients from logging communications in that server. I know the same is possible in slack or teams, but they don't consider that from a legal perspective.

From a legal, practical and technical perspective, any window displayed on any screen is equally succeptible to logging. I can't imagine the fact that the company disabled ctrl+c in the policy settings making any difference in a liability case.

*print screen and phone cameras.

Re: Simplicity of IRC

#196
post #99

Earlier quoted context omitted.

IRC is probably used by more people now than ever before, though in a very different way than before. The whole of Twitch's chat infrastructure is running on it and it have hundreds of thousands of concurrent users. Though for most people it is running though a websocket instead of a raw socket, but the commands are the same a long way

The IRC protocol is for the bot API only. The chat on the website uses a custom protocol, and the IRC daemon has always been a custom implementation with weird quirks.

It is a custom protocol that follows IRC very closely, they just have a lot of extensions on it to add support for the things on twitch. to start a connection you send PASS, NICK, USER and then JOIN, over the websocket so I would not really call it a custom protocol. The url it uses is wss://irc-ws.chat.twitch.tv/ as well.

Re: Simplicity of IRC

#197
post #33

It’s a real shame how difficult programming is. I don’t mean that it is difficult to write difficult things, but that it is difficult to write simple things. Once upon a time, one could download visual studio, click about to make a new project in (e.g.) Visual Basic, draw a gui in the gui editor, and click the run button. One could then start adding simple functionality (e.g. working through a book). Or even longer a…

TCL/TK >>>>>> VB. By a huge margin. VB would work great under Windows, but TCL/TK kits would work everywhere.

I liked VB6 when I first tried it. You drew a UI, then you double-clicked the components to get a menu of stub code-blocks. It was good for making UIs.

Then suddenly there were masses of weird, undocumented APIs, including APIs from any application installed on the machine. Unfortunately I was making my living from VB6 at the time, so I had to learn it all. (And then MS withdrew support for VB6, forcing me to learn a new trade, which is only one driver of my animus against MS)

Long ago I owned a Sinclair QL. That toy had a rather nice BASIC editor. I think their dialect was called QBasic. You selected a function in the left pane, and it appeared for editing in the right pane. (I also loved that it used a 68K processor; that chip had a sweet instruction set)

Re: Simplicity of IRC

#198
post #10

A number of moons ago, I switched from a company that used IRC for its internal, real-time, ephemeral communication needs to an enterprise shop that used Microsoft Teams to do that (and of course other communication stuff, as the boundaries for what was better kept in Sharepoint, Confluence, Email/Exchange, the legacy Wiki, and/or Teams were never quite clear :)) there. In the old shop, we eventually had all kinds of…

With your IRC system, how did you deal with channel history, i.e. seeing messages that were delivered to the channel while the user wasn't there, something that slack and teams does well?

We had a similar thing going, people could set up a packages znc bouncer but the general rule was to assume everything was pretty much ephemeral to anyone not there. the best part to me about irc rooms is that they are allowed to be considered ephemeral, just like hallway talk and coffee breaks.

If something comes of the discussion. Update docs, post the chat log in the wiki, send an email with cliff notes and ask if others care to discuss, halt and get the right people in the room.

When you decide, 'hey, we have an idea, or a change in direction' you'd then document or make the case in a way that is more clear and user friendly than a mile of ephemeral chat. This is the same reason people send out meeting summaries instead of transcripts.

We've moved to this point where nothing is ephemeral. But a random chat isn't a good way to understand why things are being done. It's just too much to parse. And at some point new people are looking for a needle in a haystack and they just kinda checkout.

I thing documentation should be intentional, the why should be clear in a doc that doesn't waste time and is formated in a way that we have come to understand as the best practices of technical documentation. You'd start with a quick overview of both the problem and proposed or adopted solution and the reader can decide if they need more info.

Especially with remote work, I think it's important to have ephemeral areas for discussion without expectations that everyone keeps up on the whole chat. Thinking every team member needs to know every word of discussion is ludicrous.

Re: Simplicity of IRC

#199
post #125

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What's more "under control of the enterprise" than a self-hosted IRC server?

It doesn't prevent clients from logging communications in that server. I know the same is possible in slack or teams, but they don't consider that from a legal perspective.

that's really funny. because i did this for CYA reasons.. with different methods, but mostly with screenshotting or autohotkey stuff.

Re: Simplicity of IRC

#200
post #30

As an aside, can I just say how refreshing this website is? It's 100% content, just text. Now view the html source, and be amazed. I daresay the author actually wrote the html by hand. I suppose it could be a very conservative and conscientious site generator that even respects line length, but I'd be surprised. Short css file for minimal style tweaks, and readable markup. Fitting that the article is about simplicity…

Unfortunately, the inline code is dark blue, unreadable in dark mode.

Thanks for commenting about this issue here. I had accidentally removed the CSS code for pre, code, etc. in a recent commit. Fixed it now.[1] You should no longer see this issue after a hard refresh.

[1] https://github.com/susam/maze/commit/1d58e13

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