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Ask HN: How do I get over constant failure?

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Re: Ask HN: How do I get over constant failure?

#61
post #54

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think we overestimate the unpopularity of opinions auch as yours and the person you are responding to. Tons of HN users work for BigBoringCo after experiencing the typical startup and realizing they can't and shouldn't handle thr volatility anymore, and tons of developers work for non-techy firms because that's more problems can be solved. Most of my best times as a software engineer was when I worked at non-techy…

In my experience on HN, people here actually really love hearing/learning about businesses outside of tech, particularly those that are introducing tech... agritech, etc. I run an ecommerce business, which is at best tech-adjacent (honestly I would say a farm using fairly advanced technology for their industry is more of a tech company than me using Shopify to sell dog treats online), and people love hearing about it…

> honestly I would say a farm using fairly advanced technology for their industry is more of a tech company than me using Shopify to sell dog treats online

LOL! Quote of the day. And it’s true. Farmers got techy before most other industries. I remember seeing farmers around 1990 getting weather and crop reports online daily, when most families hadn’t yet bought their first PC, let alone connected to a BBS.

Re: Ask HN: How do I get over constant failure?

#62

What I got from all this is that you are telling yourself that you want to do work that continuously causes you a great deal of distress. Why is that?

Partially because it's very well compensated, and my partner has a disability so I'm the sole income for our household. Taking a pay cut to do something else would be a big life change. More importantly, I can't imagine doing anything else. The first 5 years I was in the industry I loved it and was very successful. I got to travel and learn and felt like I was on top of the world.

I think there are jobs in the industry that are both well-compensated and not a major source of stress. Google is widely known for both high comp and a relaxed work environment, for example. I think maybe you just haven't found a job that has the right balance for you yet. I would say to follow others' advice on how to adapt to your new job but also don't be too hard on yourself if you can't make it work because sometimes it's just not the right fit.

Re: Ask HN: How do I get over constant failure?

#63
post #30

Earlier quoted context omitted.

High-risk deploys and slow iterations is not on you but on engineering management. Not knowing who's responsible for reviewing your code is also not on you but on your manager, bad onboarding, bad documentation and general communication. Still you can check in the repo who's been working recently on adjacent work and reach out to them on slack/whatever and ask them. I suggest to try and get small wins (like merging t…

I think the "constant failure" comes from comparing myself to all my peers who have been successful, gotten rich, been promoted, written books, etc. I don't expect to be the best of the best, but obviously some people are thriving at these places. Why am I failing?

“If you compare yourself with others, you may become vain and bitter For always there will be greater and lesser persons than yourself”

― Desiderata

Re: Ask HN: How do I get over constant failure?

#64

- Deferring to others for strategic startup/career/tech advice - More immediately, however, from the way you wrote it sounded to me like you're really, really down on yourself & have this constant churning sense of fear (above/beyond the typical "background radiation" of our insanely distressing life right now) - I hope I didn't misread, but it sounds like generally you've got your $$$ locked down for foreseeable and…

Thanks for the thoughtful feedback. I definitely think part of it is above-average background stress - queer woman, sole breadwinner for my household, grew up poor, we've had a lot of emergency expenses and unexpected health problems the last few years. Our finances aren't terrible, but the past year has eaten away a lot of the cushion I had built up from my last successful role. Objectively the rest of my life outsi…

I'm sorry to hear that. I feel for you because I hear echos of burn out that I have struggled with in what you wrote. The good news is that recovery is possible. After burning out hard many years ago, I took a long break but found that code called me back. I was doing Open Source work just because I enjoyed it.

The thing is, you have a lot of stress to deal with and you've been joining some seriously stressful job situations. I've found that burnout happens not because of working (most of us are lucky and enjoy this work), but because of a outside factors, often because of a lack of control. Burnout can happen because the work feels meaningless. I know if I am stressing out over something I don't believe in or endless projects that fail to move the needle, I will lose interest in the work.

To compound things, you have a completely unrealistic expectation of success. Retiring at 30 is hitting the lotto--and that even already happened to you. Though you said you wished you had held on to the stock, you got your big exit already. You bought a house. Congrats! That is far more successful than most of us. I've been working for 20 years and never had this. I pump out a ton of code, it's not about being good, exits like that are about being at the right place and getting lucky. You are expecting to get hit by lightening again and that's not reasonable.

If you're open to it, working out expectations like this is where a CBT therapist is good. They will hear those "should" statements about yourself and help set realistic expectations of yourself. They are like mind debuggers and I think you might thrive with the right thinking because you have already been super successful. You have done great things, you just aren't seeing them.

I would also recommend that startups are not the place for you until your life is less stressful. Big companies might be out, too, because you control so little of the output and there can be a ton of competition, they can be crazy stressful, too. Find a medium sized company with happy employees and punch that clock for a while. You've got enough to deal with.

Good luck to you! My email is in my profile if you'd like to talk.

Re: Ask HN: How do I get over constant failure?

#65

Stop going for that PR. I don't even know what a PR is, but my guts tell me that you should stop pursuing that. Start making yourself useful. Do small stuff, support other people. The guidance you miss - start giving other people guidance. Ask for advice. Don't think you know it all. The new very successful startup, the many high-performing people. Is that the truth or is that appearance? Fake it until you make it. T…

PR = Pull Request

It's how you introduce new code to many projects. OP was saying he was unable to contribute any new code.

Re: Ask HN: How do I get over constant failure?

#66
post #39

I have the same problem as you right now. Long break from work during the pandemic, joined a new company, and have only managed to merge one tiny PR in my first month. It feels terrible. What I’ve figured out is that I need to have a new way to measure myself. I wanted to be a hotshot from day one, and impress everyone by cranking out new features. But on a project this complex, it will take half a year to ramp up an…

I tried this - I taught myself Rust and Scala, built several prototypes, it was all kind of satisfying for a while until I came back to the fact that none of it translates to job security. I can sit in a corner by myself and build things nobody uses, but it's not going to keep me employed.

That’s interesting. Sounds like you’re a solid developer, but that your company doesn’t put much effort into making its employees feel secure.

This suggestion might be a bit out of left field, but reading The Wisdom of Insecurity by Alan Watts has helped me a lot with this problem.

Re: Ask HN: How do I get over constant failure?

#67
post #47
post #6

Possibly unpopular advice on HN, but stop joining startups. Idiosyncratic-Culture Risk is off the charts for startups. Join more stable firms with a more "boring" but predictable culture where things get delivered every Sprint, everyone gets paid well, there is no Mountain Dew being guzzled at 8 pm in the office to meet some deadline, weekends are truly off, and your mental health actually recovers. Your dream jobs a…

> stop joining startups. Idiosyncratic-Culture Risk is off the charts for startups I think that's true when joining a young startup (e.g. company less than 2-3 years old). But there are plenty of 15-40 person "startups" that have been around for 5+ years and are profitable - I would say these types of companies are good to join (if they've had a stable and consistent management team) since after 5 years, the company…

Is a company that's been in business for five years with a staff really a start-up?

Re: Ask HN: How do I get over constant failure?

#68
post #6

Possibly unpopular advice on HN, but stop joining startups. Idiosyncratic-Culture Risk is off the charts for startups. Join more stable firms with a more "boring" but predictable culture where things get delivered every Sprint, everyone gets paid well, there is no Mountain Dew being guzzled at 8 pm in the office to meet some deadline, weekends are truly off, and your mental health actually recovers. Your dream jobs a…

One hundred percent. I spent five years at a thrashing startup and then crashed and burned at a well-known cloud workflow company. It crushed my spirit. But I remembered a very friendly recruiter who had an opportunity for a tech lead on a marketing team. I set aside my ego and pride and he put me in touch of with a team of humble, hard-working folks who love web development. No one is out to be the most brilliant. We work as a team and we all actually like one another.

Re: Ask HN: How do I get over constant failure?

#69

It sounds like you're a holistic or big picture type. I struggle with this too. I don't have all the answers but my advice would be to try and focus on a smaller thing and get a win with that. Don't propose several projects, propose one and give it enough attention and proof that it's hard to refuse. Are your proposals measurable? Are they valuable? Are they framed in business context? If more is thrown at you, push…

I'm definitely struggling with finding the one big thing I should focus on. My team has a few objectives for the coming year, but it's unclear who actually owns them or how to get involved. We have a new manager coming in to replace the one who left, but the timing is not great given how long I've already been treading water. PR approval is mostly down to not being able to get any person to actually +1 - our deploys…

Oh jeez, that sounds oddly familiar!

Right before the pandemic I joined a large company you've heard of. My boss was mostly absent - I talked to her maybe four times during my entire stay. We were actively hiring for an intermediate lead to take the load off her.

My teammates had no idea what to have me do. We operated a confusing distributed workflow that touched many teams. Changes and deploys were seen as risky, but failure was also constant, and my teammates spent a lot of time shepherding various parts of the workflow manually. The whole thing had lots of dependencies that were owned by different teams, and none of them felt the need to take on the risk of approving each other's changes.

I ended up leaving after a couple of months. Satisfyingly, the company went on to lay off 20% of its engineering staff right after, including the intermediate lead we had just brought on. I managed to fall back onto another offer I had received earlier in my job hunt (and then left that position about a year later for similar reasons).

What I took from the experience is that not only do a lot of software teams treat hiring as a mystical ritual full of supernatural risk to their very existence, but they also don't have a clue about what to do with a new hire. That's also a mystical ritual, in which they want you to somehow "get absorbed" into the team without any explicit planning or guidance on their part.

Some teams (some) have wish lists of project ideas and tasks that they wish they had the bandwidth to work on. Other teams at least have bug queues that range from bugs appropriate for new hires to much more general issues that take planning and triage.

But a surprising number of teams hire as a means of throwing spaghetti at the wall to see what sticks. Maybe the lead is frustrated with the pace of work. Maybe the team has an unfilled FTE role and they don't want to lose it. So they end up hiring someone because (a) you must always be hiring, duh, and (b) not filling that FTE vacancy means your team loses the zero-sum competition for prominence with other teams.

In my experience, I would have probably unearthed some red flags, had I dug in more. There are usually red flags in the hiring manager's description of what they want a new hire to accomplish. I now know what to look for, I think (basically, comments suggesting that your job, as an IC, is to "transform" things or even "blow them up!").

What would I have done if I had to stay? Well, sometimes dysfunction works well for all parties involved, and that would have been mind-numbing. But I would have gambled on the possibility that painful, risky deploys and unclear success criteria were a pain point for everyone. That means work on metrics, tests, and the tooling for them. It means building reliable rollback and faster deploy. It means building parallel testing pipelines. Overall, when there is chaos and lack of buy-in, one possible solution is to build stuff that demonstrates usefulness without a need for buy-in. I wasn't eager to build any of those things. I had another opportunity, so I took it and left.

My guess is that your experiences are only partially connected to who you are as an engineer. A lot of teams are just disappointingly unprepared to use a new hire. Some people do thrive in such environments, either thanks to past experience or a quirk of personality. Given the opportunity of unformed chaos, they build projects that they know can't fail and then deliver on them. You might not have that confidence or experience. If you want to get more resilient to this kind of situation, either keep rolling the dice with new teams (they can't all suck at onboarding!), or find ways to use dysfunction as an opportunity to show off your initiative and experience.

Re: Ask HN: How do I get over constant failure?

#70
There's a lot in here!

Having read some of the comments, it seems really important to me to center the information that you're queer, supporting a disabled partner. I worked in tech from 2013-2020, and from 2015-2020 my Dad's health was very fragile, and he had made no financial plans. I became his guardian, paying for homes, doing the paperwork, managing the care, and I think this is a huge piece of any situation like this.

There's a lot of curiosity in the comments about what the right environment and role is. I share those questions, but I also think it's important to just feel into the situation more before moving to action.

Queerness I also know for me, in tech, reminded me of the idea - everyone has to learn the dominant paradigm, and then there's ours. Meaning, I do think I experience the world differently through queerness, and it was a navigation to own that and lean into its gifts, rather than just feel a sense of otherness. I don't know if that's part of your experience or not, but it felt worth sharing.

I have started offering coaching - if you'd like to just connect for an hour (no charge or anything, just connection) my email is in my profile. My instinct is it would just be good to drop into what you're saying and really feel through the layers of life situation, the creeping in fear, the aloneness, the stuckness, and see where forward might be in all of it...

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