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Systemd, 10 years later (2020)

blog.darknedgy.net

251–260 of 332 posts

Re: Systemd, 10 years later (2020)

#251
post #194

Systemd pissed off many people. For me and most users, the transition was fully imperceptible. With the difference that systemctl tools seem to work better for what it does than the many sparse different tools it replaced.

> the transition was fully imperceptible A normal user will never really link the features they see or do not see back to the init system. I'll draw a parallel with the worst subsystem being cut out of modern Linux - X Windows. As far as I can tell Linux is missing good macro systems that can record actions taken by a user, then replay them. For loops for non programmers, basically. This isn't because the idea is rad…

> the monoculture created by systemd

systemd became the de-facto default init sys because Distro Maintainers have chosen it. I posted this link here before, but I will happily post it again: https://www.reddit.com/r/archlinux/comments/4lzxs3/why_did_a...

Such a thing doesn't happen if the thing offered isn't an improvement over what was before.

As a matter of fact, this doesn't even happen if the thing offered is only a small improvement. We have seen this time and time again in Programmig languages: Exciting, clever new things that offer real advantages vanishing into obscurity because while they were better, they were not better by a large enough margin.

Diversity is great if it offers advantages. Different kinds of RDBMS are a good example. Different kinds of shells. Rust being there as a C alternative, Go being there as a Java alternative, Julia as a possible Python alternative, WASM instead of JS. All great.

But keeping something mainstream just because its different, adds no value. People can and do still use other init systems, but I am very glad I no longer have to wrestle 400-line sh init scripts on my production servers.

Re: Systemd, 10 years later (2020)

#252
post #131

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Linux users tend to come up with whatever "philosophy" suits their agenda of complaining about all change. The unix philosophy gets thrown out the window as soon as it comes to Wayland which took a huge, bloated, and buggy Xorg and broke it down to something more sane and manageable.

Doesn’t wayland force window managers to be integrated into some behemoth bloated monolith? My preferred WM is evilwm. I read the entire source to it in a few hours, and occasionally edit the source when I want to customize it for my odd workflows. I don’t think that’s possible with wayland. Also, wayland forced a bunch of questionable security policies around screen capture and keyboard handling, and didn’t provide…

Wayland is a protocol only. A wayland implementation may choose to incorporate the functionality of a window manager, or can create some way to outsource it to a separate executable.

The security policies are not questionable. XServer is beyond fixable. A single rogue extension can screen share everything you do to a remote server, you would not even recognize that.

Re: Systemd, 10 years later (2020)

#253
post #61

Systemd pissed off many people. For me and most users, the transition was fully imperceptible. With the difference that systemctl tools seem to work better for what it does than the many sparse different tools it replaced.

It’s a functional improvement over old init, but the thing I hate about it is how unnecessarily arcane it is. It seems “designed for job security” or more likely designed for consulting revenue. There is absolutely no need for its command names and everything else about it to be so counterintuitive.

What is arcane about systemctl stop and journalctl --since?

Re: Systemd, 10 years later (2020)

#254
post #73

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Like what if you don't mind me asking, and what did people used to use as an alternative?

A bunch of very large bash scripts that were entirely different in each distro, had tons of races and were much slower to boot (one of the reasons why systemd became so popular and there was popular pressure to switch to it is that it would speed up booting by several seconds). Also upstart, which was actually pretty good, but systemd was more ambitious.

I agree with most of this but have to disagree about these shell scripts being slow. On Debian most of them were written for dash instead of bash and they were executed in parallell based on magic comments which defined the dependencies. It was still a mess but a mess which was fast, not as fast as systemd but fast enough for most users.

Additionally Upstart was not good. It has some good ideas but its approach to dependencies was generally regarded as unintuitive. Writing services in systemd is much more obvious than writing for Upstart.

Re: Systemd, 10 years later (2020)

#255

The systemd "culture war" is just a side-effect of the hegemony server Linux enjoys over desktop Linux. A very small percentage of sysadmins really care about what init system is running on their servers. If you look at who's forking distros and making systemd-free variants, and look at who the vocal anti-systemd users are, they're overwhelmingly desktop-focused users. But this is strange because desktop Linux barely…

One could argue for the opposite also. On server side everybody uses containers anyway and has no use for an init system beyond docker-compose or k8.

Re: Systemd, 10 years later (2020)

#256
post #249

Earlier quoted context omitted.

'I am altering the deal, pray I do not alter it further.' --Darth Lennart I actually appreciate, now, what systemd is trying to do, but I am not certain why it has to take over home directories and everything else to do it. And I am really uncertain why it has to have such bad taste. I can get why it uses C, even though IMHO that is a mistake. But .ini files? D-Bus? XML ‽‽‽ Oh well, at least it's not YAML.

Take over home directories?!

Cf. https://systemd.io/HOME_DIRECTORY/

Re: Systemd, 10 years later (2020)

#258
post #58

Earlier quoted context omitted.

For the init system, the most common predecessor was a combination of sysvnit and "initscripts" (a shell script for each daemon on your system). Writing the init scripts was simple for the most basic cases but quite complex for complete, bug free case coverage. A big appeal of systemd for packagers and sysadmins was the relative simplicity of unit files. Now we just have to fill out a simple boilerplate INI style fil…

It was not. There is strange false history that systemd replaced sysvinit, which occurred only on Debian, because Debian was the last major system to discard sysvinit. Gentoo had replaced sysvinit with OpenRC in 2006; Fedora and Ubuntu were using Upstart in 2005. systemd primarily replaced Upstart and systems that used Runit or OpenRC tended to have stayed with them. Frankness be, this false history seems to be craft…

> Debian was the last major system to discard sysvinit

This is partially incorrect and partially misleading.

Incorrect in that openSUSE and Arch are major distros and migrated from sysvinit to systemd.

https://news.opensuse.org/2011/12/22/systemd-e2-80-93-boot-f...

https://www.reddit.com/r/archlinux/comments/4lzxs3/why_did_a...

Misleading in that Ubuntu and Fedora did use Upstart but not in its native mode, they used it in its sysvinit compatibility mode. This is almost identical to sysvinit, so from the point of view of a user or a package maintainer it was functionally barely distinguishable from sysvinit.

OpenRC was considered by Debian, but 7 out of 8 members of the technical committee preferred both systemd and Upstart to OpenRC (Ian Jackson preferred sysvinit over OpenRC and "further discussion" over every other option).

https://bugs.debian.org/cgi-bin/bugreport.cgi?bug=727708;msg...

Re: Systemd, 10 years later (2020)

#259
post #70

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I hate the feature and mission creep of systemd and try to use other unixes where I am able; but what you wrote is downright insane. There were several init replacements in the mainstream before systemd. OSX and Solaris both had their own, and they were as UNIX (officially certified) as you can get. Also, as long as we're doing non-sequitors; Microsoft is more likely to buy Canonical than they are to buy RedHat or IB…

Lennart Poettering, the fellow who is turning GNU/Linux into a version of Windows, works for Red Hat.

> turning GNU/Linux into a version of Windows

The piece of software systemd is most like is launchctl, which doesn't come from Windows.

On the other hand, the biggest "Windows-ism" to reach Linux lately is io_uring. But it's both too technical and too useful to have some populist uprising against it.

Re: Systemd, 10 years later (2020)

#260
post #239

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I like systemd, but I abhor the arrogance and manouvering with which is was pushed.

You mean the completely democratic vote done multiple times by Debian?

No, I mean the bait-and-switch embrace-extend-extinguish with false pretexts, documented quite well in TFA...
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