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T-Shaped People and Academia

bastian.rieck.me

71–80 of 135 posts

Re: T-Shaped People and Academia

#71

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Author here—thanks for these comments! I realise that this is a valid take, but it's not what I had in mind. Being based in European academia salaries for Ph.D. students and other personnel are more or less fixed (of course, going to industry, this is not the case). I certainly do not want to exploit students. My observation is that modern machine learning research entails so many additional moving parts (most, but n…

> I certainly do not want to exploit students. Then you must tell them that when they do “non-core-work“ they are essentially wasting their time; at least if they intend to stay in academia. Sure there is some technical housekeeping necessary to get research done and papers written. But it must be kept to an absolute minimum. It is nice to have students who polish the web site or set up CI on GitHub. But these studen…

I only partially agree with you there---as a PI, I also have an option to reward these sort of activities. I understand that it is not a good idea to employ someone for the wrong role, so any 'non-core work' activities need to be at least discussed with respect to potential ramifications.

However, I find it somehow weird that we only ever measure success along one axis. Moreover, these students often serve as facilitators, making it easier for others to finish projects. Navigating this precarious space is not an easy task for me, I admit that.

Re: T-Shaped People and Academia

#72
post #64

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes, precisely! And I should stress that the students I hire as PhD students are hired as exactly that. No strings attached, no additional duties, etc. They are free to focus on their research. My point in the article was more to put a finger on the fact that there is 'core work' (papers, papers, papers!!!) in academia and 'non-core work.' The latter is rewarded less, in my experience, even though it's a prerequisite…

Your answers feel like you are engaging in cognitive dissonance. On the one hand, you recognize in your article that "non-core" work is not rewarded in academia. In particular, however, the situation is dire for current PhD students. Getting into a PhD program is easy compared to getting an academic job (even - or especially - in the EU) with at least some job security. Further, you probably know that most PhDs lack…

> Your answers feel like you are engaging in cognitive dissonance.

I am not sure where you are getting this from. My intent is only to point out that there is more to consider than publication output. I will try to make this position more precise.

I again want to stress at this point that I do not want to hire students to perform non-core work; this is not what I wrote in the article and I am certainly not advocating for that because it is exploitation (almost of the form 'trading a PhD for years of programming'). My point is that modern research has some non-core aspects, and in my experience, these are ignore by the PIs insofar as they are expected to be performed, but they will not be rewarded or recognised.

> On the other hand, your replies indicate that you are following the "traditional" European research hierarchy, where the PhD student does years of "non-core" work for the Professor, ultimately ends up with less publications. This leads to issues competing internationally, a chain of short term contracts, post-docs or adjunct positions and finally, many leaving academia (or at least the EU). Which, by the way, is a real problem.

Fully agree with you that it's a problem. But in my experience, we cannot get around the fact that ML research is certainly helped by good SWE skills. Now there are people that like these sort of aspects more than others; and my point is that they can also help to enrich a team, even though---if just seen through the lens of publication output---they might seem less strong.

> In European academia, we are all aware of these traditional hierarchical sentiments. At each university, there are stories about the Professor who said something like: "Your first research ideas belong to me", or Professors who actively resist the establishment of a stipend-based PhD program with the argument that "Someone (the PhDs) has to do the work at the institute!".

Agreed, but I have to emphasise that I am not talk about doing work for the institute or for maintaining lab infrastructure. I realise how one could arrive at this impression, but this is far from my original intent. I wanted to point out that hiring someone with a more generalist skill set and mindset can enrich a research time _just as well_ as hiring someone with a more expert mindset.

> And here, your reply here worries me. No, you do not hire PhDs to work for you. You hire them to train them to be researchers and to collaborate on that. Next to publishing and teaching, as a Professor, you are responsible for enabling these PhD students to have a successful career. More than in any other career, it is YOU, the advisor, who ends up making or breaking the future of a human being.

If I could rephrase this in my own terms, I would also state that I hire them to work with me, to collaborate with me. I also agree that I should enable them to have a successful career---regardless of where they choose to work in the end.

> The thought that PhDs are merely hired workers who have to work through "menial, non core" work before they are allowed to get to their research, is one of the main reasons why academic research in the EU is doing so badly compared to other regions in the world.

Fully agree with you here, but this is not what I wrote at all. A PhD student is foremost a budding researcher. My point is that it makes sense to consider their skill sets in a more holistic fashion when hiring them.

> In the interest of your future PhD students, I implore you to consider how much impact you really have on their lives!

I am keenly aware of this responsibility. I realise that my points above might have been misconstrued, but please understand that I have foremost their interests in mind. It is disheartening to see how my more generalist friends who are doing their PhDs are not recognised at all in academia. _This_, IMO, is also some form of 'brain drain' that could be avoided.

Re: T-Shaped People and Academia

#73

>Setting up a suitable build system. Writing some unit tests for the code. Creating a skeleton of the models that are to be developed. Designing nice mock-ups or logos. Creating animations or graphics for presentations. I actively advise students against joining labs like this and consider the whole enterprise unethical. I raise concerns whenever I'm reviewing grant proposals by folks who run their labs like this. I'…

I'm a PhD student in Europe and I get paid more than a junior graphic designer or marketing person and I get paid about the same as senior DevOps engineers.

It would definitely be cheaper for my research group to outsource this work onto non-research staff.

Re: T-Shaped People and Academia

#74

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Author here---maybe you find my response to the parent post interesting. What you are describing is something I also experienced: a good name can open a lot of doors for you, and academia is certainly not as meritocratic as people might think it is. I read some anger and disenchantment in your comment. Feel free to reach out in order to get another perspective on your situation. In any case, without knowing the speci…

Indeed, thank you for your kind reply. I resonate hard with your first paragraph :) I do feel anger sometimes, but after all they're pleasant folks to work with, and I feel I shouldn't blame them just because they're born in richer places than me. I'd probably still finish my PhD :) But I do admire your resolution to become a professor, as I have been nothing but impatient with teaching other people things I understa…

Thank you.

I come from a non-academic background myself (although being born in Europe certainly simplified things...I am mentoring students from India, for instance, and was shocked to learn about the high cost of even applying somewhere---but that's a different story), and have the feeling that academia is closed off against these sort of backgrounds. Despite academics trying very hard to think of themselves as being 'heterodox' and 'challenging the status quo,' most just follow along with the system. I don't want to assume a self-aggrandising position and believe that I alone can change the system, but maybe I can point out some issues at least...

(and thanks a lot for your kind words!)

Re: T-Shaped People and Academia

#75
post #62

I'm familiar with the type of people you're describing, they are curios and creative and constantly looking for ways to improve things, these people are very rare (particularly in academia?) and really not easy to find. I don't think these criteria you mentioned will help since most of them are not necessary personal qualities, they are rather a group culture. If there are established good practices in the group (at…

That's a good point---if they are not easy to find, maybe it is possible to instil some values into a group's culture to _create them_?

Re: T-Shaped People and Academia

#76

It will be near impossible to get tenure if one develops T-shaped qualities. You simply cannot amass the number of grants and papers necessary when dancing on several academic parties, or even doing devops. I've seen too many PhD students doing that and then hitting an academic dead end in their first postdoc or directly after graduating. It's great for the PI if they have T-shaped students on their team, but they mu…

> It's great for the PI if they have T-shaped students on their team, but they must make it clear to those highly talented people that academia is most likely not for them. Which puts in question whether it makes sense for them to do a PhD at all.

(I replied to another comment of yours, but wanted to get this in as well) Yes, absolutely, and this is somewhat painful to me, because I think that a PhD can also be a period of tremendous joy for such people because they might use it to experiment broadly with their skill set. Academia loses out here :-(

Re: T-Shaped People and Academia

#77
post #27

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The counter is that only a small minority of people who graduate with a PhD get to do research in their fields after graduating. It's a disservice to them if they don't gain skills beyond research. It's why many PhDs can't get jobs in teams like mine - they don't have the skills of people with lesser degrees, and while we're not against training new candidates, we don't want to pay them large sums of money when the g…

What skills are you talking about? Git commit and unit testing? Not saying they’re insignificant skills but a competent PhD should be able to learn them quite fast (in a month) in a competent environment. I and many others did. The issue is that there are a large number of phds who are actually much dimmer than your average programmer, and you’re not differentiating them in the interviews.

Any programmer can learn to write a unit test. Not all can learn to design code to be easily testable. If you can't differentiate before hiring, because they don't even know how to write tests, then you're taking a big risk hiring them.

Re: T-Shaped People and Academia

#78

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Ah, I think I see the distinction now! :-) I was thinking more in terms of skills that translate between different projects, such as the large degree of software engineering skills that help in every ML project. I realise that this is a relatively narrow definition of 'T,' and yours is much, much larger. Science is definitely benefiting from all types of researchers; I was just observing that some hiring committees i…

Thanks for your article and responses. I was thinking about famous "I" and "T" scientists in history and I think there is a connection between "T" and "I" scientists and Freeman Dyson's "Birds and Frogs" essay. Examples of Frogs or "I": Francis Bacon, Freeman Dyson, John von Neumann Examples of Birds of "T": Descartes, Yuri Manin, Hilbert

Yes, that's an excellent metaphor! Maybe this would be more apt than 'I' and 'T'.

Re: T-Shaped People and Academia

#79

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Thanks for outlining these positions! > 1. The grant system overly rewards proposals that grant givers can understand to have a high chance of success. This creates an echo chamber of what kind of research gets funded. This is indeed something I am experiencing across the board. There are few 'blue-skies research programmes.' The Swiss National Science Foundation had one a few years back and I was over the moon to ge…

Haha, I am quite a bit more jaded than you and I think the current academic system is impossible to improve. I say this after having spent over a decade within it. I have also spent almost a decade in and around the US healthcare system and similarly think that it is impossible to improve. The thing is, there are enough people at the fringes of both those systems who genuinely believe in the ideals of those systems.…

> The thing is, there are enough people at the fringes of both those systems who genuinely believe in the ideals of those systems. I think those people, working together, can build better institutions that exist in parallel to the corrupt, diseased, broken systems that are a burden on our society today.

I am seeing flickers of this at least in some parts of academia, for instance the move towards open-access publishing and improved reviewing...but in the end, I have to admit that there might be a 'brain drain' coming (or people might, over time, just be corrupted and play along with the status quo)

Re: T-Shaped People and Academia

#80

Professors are rewarded for publications and almost nothing else (at least from what I've seen at the school I'm apart of), so because of it all effort goes towards publications, and this passes down to students and the folks they hope to hire. Its also unfortunate any work that is not done towards a publication is essentially invisible to everyone within that system. Even things like teaching are considered second c…

This depends heavily on the university employing the professor. At least in the UK there are universities where one can progress to the highest academic rank by excellence in teaching. Given that such universities draw the majority of their income from students, this makes economical sense. Whether the economisation of higher education is a good thing is a different question, of course. But in the UK there seems to b…

The UK's "multiple tracks" leading to professor are indeed attractive, however at some institutions it's not really a "true" professorship - some might be fixed-term contracts, and (at least in another track) it isn't recognised by outsider funders as a full professorship, or indeed as a true academic post.

Teaching is generally under-valued across the board - graduate students are expected to teach as part of their PhD work very often, sometimes paid extra for this. I've seen some unscrupulous departments making no sincere attempts to help students finish their PhD on time, then turn around and offer up scraps like hourly teaching "contracts" to teach their classes, after their PhD funding has run out.

Separating teaching and research, if it leads to both being equal peers, can make sense. I fear, however, that teaching will continue to be the un-favoured step-sibling in institutions which have research income. Research income and grants let you build a fiefdom of underlings, but teaching generally doesn't - one professor can teach a class of 200, and run a couple of tutorial sessions with a team of 8 post-grad students.

The scaling of teaching is very attractive to the university, but it doesn't get the professor people under them, to make them more important.

I've seen people be hired into "active teaching" academic roles who are manifestly incapable of teaching. Their "research track record" seemingly made up for their car-crash presentation to the department during the interview process. After the pile of (entirely foreseeable, by anyone at the presentation) student complaints flooded in, they ended up not needing to teach. There's definitely an implicit assumption that "teaching is easy, and anyone can do it" lingering around in a lot of departments.

I don't think we should entirely split research and teaching - it's very much possible to be T-shaped and good at both. Indeed, being able to engage a room full of tired students first thing on a Monday morning is a skill many academic presenters would benefit from having, purely in learning how to better communicate their research. Unless departments take a much wider, more holistic view of what is expected though, this won't be valued or change, as far as I can see at least.

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