Hacker News Board Hacker News, browsed like a classic message board
Live data from Hacker News

Systemd, 10 years later (2020)

blog.darknedgy.net

Post reply on HN
Print view View original

161–170 of 332 posts

Re: Systemd, 10 years later (2020)

#161

Post by Spooky23 »

CogitoCogito wrote: post #84
Spooky23 wrote: post #67

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Exactly. “Idempotent” is one of the key words used as a cudgel in this way. It’s great for the bullshit artist, as to a layman the dictionary definition is completely inscrutable.

> Exactly. > “Idempotent” is one of the key words used as a cudgel in this way. It’s great for the bullshit artist, as to a layman the dictionary definition is completely inscrutable. Are you saying that being "idempotent" is completely inscrutable? Is it not a fairly straight-forward concept?

In the context used, it’s fluff.

Re: Systemd, 10 years later (2020)

#162

Post by Blikkentrekker »

johnny22 wrote: post #139
Blikkentrekker wrote: post #71

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It was not. There is strange false history that systemd replaced sysvinit, which occurred only on Debian, because Debian was the last major system to discard sysvinit. Gentoo had replaced sysvinit with OpenRC in 2006; Fedora and Ubuntu were using Upstart in 2005. systemd primarily replaced Upstart and systems that used Runit or OpenRC tended to have stayed with them. Frankness be, this false history seems to be craft…

is that 2006 number correct re: gentoo? Although i wouldn't start by comparing against openrc, but rather the previous uhmm "baselayout" init system. (sorry, i haven't used gentoo in a long time). The previous gentoo init system was already better than sysvinit and initscripts. I still prefer and use systemd though.

No, it is actually incorrect, all numbers are incorrect by one year it seems. Gentoo switched in 2007, and Ubuntu and Fedora used Upstart since 2006.

And why wouldn't you compare it with the systems it actually competes against and replaces rather than against something that was barely used any more before systemd even stated development? The comparison with sysvinit, suggesting that those that do not use systemd advocate sysvinit instead, is simply a flagrant straw-man designed to make systemd look good.

Re: Systemd, 10 years later (2020)

#163

Post by wrycoder »

GekkePrutser wrote: post #154
cfors wrote: post #21

Earlier quoted context omitted.

IBM already purchased red hat for $34b 3 years ago, so no need to wait any longer :)

I think he means that MS would buy IBM and RedHat with it. I doubt they will though. Like others have said MS buying Canonical would make a lot more sense. And there have already been a lot of overtures.

What I meant is that MS could buy Red Hat from. IBM. Failing that, buy IBM.

Re: Systemd, 10 years later (2020)

#164

Post by awrmc »

zozbot234 wrote: post #145
vanviegen wrote: post #94

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Although I like the acpid approach, the logind way is probably safer to abstract behind a user friendly GUI. That's what most people will be using. :-/

> the logind way is probably safer to abstract behind a user friendly GUI. How so? The canonical solution would be to ship a default `lid_down` script that could take the currently-active policy as set by the GUI as an input. But the nice thing is that adding/tweaking policies is a fully-supported operation, you just edit the script and the GUI config mechanism to support them.

I just made an account to respond to this. Shipping scripts is racy and error-prone. It's the wrong approach and is not how any actively developed desktop wants to do things. They want an API they can use from a service, that's what logind provides and that's why it's been adopted. You can also run acpid alongside logind if that's what you prefer, but it will be racy unless you also use logind's inhibitor API.

Re: Systemd, 10 years later (2020)

#165

Post by Blikkentrekker »

dijit wrote: post #141
Blikkentrekker wrote: post #65

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Of course, but I would not like to have to patch it to modify something that on other systems can be modified with either a configuration option, or a shell script. To me, the most poisonous example that contrasts the traditional design with Freedesktop's design is acpid contrasting logind. In the former case, an acpi event is sent, and acpid simply executes a file such as `/etc/acpi/action/lid_down.sh`. That file ca…

And this means we can’t do things like force disconnect an eGPU or whatever on acpi events. I think I figured out my issue with systemd. It does not apply Chesterton Fence when redeveloping things… and how could it, when it redevelops so much. Maybe it’s fine if it’s all you’ve ever know (or you never hacked on your system) but those that did have lost something.

The situation is that such hackers and tweakers rarely use systemd, for these reasons.

They are simply annoyed by A) it being pushed on them; B) people often acting that they are irrational for not liking it while it does not what they expect and need; and C) discussions with Freedesktop developers that, frankness be, reveal they live inside of a very strange bubble and have no idea of the use cases outside of it.

This is software brought to you by the minds who brought you. “I have no idea what XFCE is or does, sorry.” or that libinput did not need a way to disable mouse acceleration because everyone wants mouse acceleration.

Re: Systemd, 10 years later (2020)

#166

Post by GekkePrutser »

dang wrote: post #33
cf100clunk wrote: post #5

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Of all the topics for which we do not need dupes, this one is a perfect example. Don't people use HN's search tool?

On HN, reposts only count as dupes if the story has had significant attention in the last year or so. This is in the FAQ: https://news.ycombinator.com/newsfaq.html . (but also, it's true, people tend not to use HN search before posting)

Maybe there could be an auto search with a warning when posting a link? Saying "hey this has already been posted" and a summary of those rules.

But you have probably thought of this already and didn't do it for a good reason.

In this case I hadn't seen it before so it was news to me.

Re: Systemd, 10 years later (2020)

#168

Post by wrycoder »

rnd0 wrote: post #70
wrycoder wrote: post #17

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Right. I have a simple rule: don’t use a GNU/Linux system that uses systemd. It doesn’t respect the Unix philosophy. It’s trying to turn it into Windows. I’m waiting for Microsoft to buy Red Hat. Failing that, IBM.

I hate the feature and mission creep of systemd and try to use other unixes where I am able; but what you wrote is downright insane. There were several init replacements in the mainstream before systemd. OSX and Solaris both had their own, and they were as UNIX (officially certified) as you can get. Also, as long as we're doing non-sequitors; Microsoft is more likely to buy Canonical than they are to buy RedHat or IB…

Lennart Poettering, the fellow who is turning GNU/Linux into a version of Windows, works for Red Hat.

Re: Systemd, 10 years later (2020)

#169

Post by awrmc »

Blikkentrekker wrote: post #127
vanviegen wrote: post #94

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Although I like the acpid approach, the logind way is probably safer to abstract behind a user friendly GUI. That's what most people will be using. :-/

And that is probably the motivation for this design philosophy of limiting options that Redhat and Freedesktop champion where more and more, simple, clean, turing complete solutions are replaced by a discrete list of simple options. But it does not change at all why I dislike it, and why I am annoyed by Freedesktop's pushing and insistence that many keep to these more custoizable solutions supposedly simply because t…

You have a misunderstanding of what Freedesktop is. Freedesktop is just a group of desktop developers that submit standards to each other, they don't really dictate anything. For that reason it tends to self-select for developers who are actively working on desktop environments, and the standards that tend to get submitted there are things that already have some level of adoption among open source desktops. You too can submit specifications to Freedesktop but you'll probably not have much luck with getting something adopted among peers if you're not already interacting with other desktop developers on a regular basis.

"Customizability" is also not the domain of a group that like Freedesktop that publishes specifications. Their purpose is to define some baseline of standard behavior for interoperability. The customization comes from individual projects. No offense but your criticism is pretty misplaced.

Re: Systemd, 10 years later (2020)

#170

Post by ChuckMcM »

marcodiego wrote: post #3

Systemd pissed off many people. For me and most users, the transition was fully imperceptible. With the difference that systemctl tools seem to work better for what it does than the many sparse different tools it replaced.

" For me and most users, the transition was fully imperceptible."

So far. I hope for your sake it continues to be so.

Post reply on HN