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Is Bitcoin Down or Just Me?

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Re: Is Bitcoin Down or Just Me?

#201

Post by notch656a »

analog31 wrote: post #124
notch656a wrote: post #82

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Because no private enterprise could provide power or internet. Sure, some of the internet technology was invented with government grants, but lets not pretend these inventions were only inevitable due to US government. If US government were gone today the internet, electricity, and bitcoin will still be here but the usefulness of the dollar will massively decrease.

If not for the relative regularization of commerce provided by corporate law, and relative stability achieved through economic policy, I think there would be no investment in great ventures of the scale needed to build the electric grid, semiconductor manufacturing, telecommunications, etc. The limitation of liability granted to the shareholders of corporations is the granddaddy of all entitlements, because it enable…

Those achievements are through cooperative contracts and agreements. That can happen without US government. They can even happen without any government at all. Government after all is just a body with a monopoly on violence.

Re: Is Bitcoin Down or Just Me?

#202

Post by anderber »

hartator wrote: post #126
anderber wrote: post #110

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Cryptocurrency is probably one of the worst inventions in recent memory Keep in mind that not all Cryptocurrency use mining. Nano, for example, is zero fee, environmentally friendly coin that is incredibly fast. Bitcoin gets all the talk but there are some great and interesting tech out there. Get yourself a wallet ( https://natrium.io/ ) and I'll send you some so you can try it out. https://nano.org/

I am curious as well. I’ve created a wallet: nano_1g6bkdkp9h6y4594sa3kiyu4xdmfz3nbj9z4zeptrdatcztpprcdsno5p6nr How is it secure if it’s not doing any wasteful mining though?

This article (https://www.kraken.com/en-us/learn/what-is-nano) goes into how it keeps the network secure. But Proof of Stake is the basics of it.

I sent you one Nano to play with. Let me know what you think! For me, I think Nano is a great replacement to cash. You can give and receive without fees. It makes a great way to donate or pay for things.

Re: Is Bitcoin Down or Just Me?

#203

Post by vmception »

flatiron wrote: post #197
vmception wrote: post #50

Earlier quoted context omitted.

2016 called and wants its arguments back

its not an argument against bitcoin at all. go walk into a starbucks with a gold bar. it certainly has value. they certainly want to give you coffee for value. it's just not the write medium. bitcoin is gold bars. not ready for retail but certainly ready for a hold of value. nothing wrong with that.

the point is that the user experience is not accurate so no rationale for it is relevant either

many merchants take 0 confirmations with payment processors

or use lightning network

or use a faster blockchain

Re: Is Bitcoin Down or Just Me?

#204

Post by killingtime74 »

anderber wrote: post #110
beaconstudios wrote: post #54

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There is a meaningful service cost, it's just paid for by mining. Environmentally there's also a massive cost, one that is not offset by the benefits bitcoin brings - which is primarily financial speculation and scams. Cryptocurrency is probably one of the worst inventions in recent memory.

> Cryptocurrency is probably one of the worst inventions in recent memory Keep in mind that not all Cryptocurrency use mining. Nano, for example, is zero fee, environmentally friendly coin that is incredibly fast. Bitcoin gets all the talk but there are some great and interesting tech out there. Get yourself a wallet ( https://natrium.io/ ) and I'll send you some so you can try it out. https://nano.org/

Only all the crypto people actually use

Re: Is Bitcoin Down or Just Me?

#205

Post by notch656a »

beaconstudios wrote: post #192
notch656a wrote: post #185

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Well what is your solution for the common man TODAY then, to do in the meantime before all your dreams of a more equitable or reasonable society come true? You don't seem to like wall street so stocks are out. You've bashed precious metals as not being a net positive. Crypto is out because it makes it makes smoky the bear cry. Dollars have reached a ~7% inflation on CPI and even worst inflation against assets. Most b…

Once again, I don't blame you at all for engaging in investment or speculation or whatever. I'm not concerned with individual action, I'm concerned with the systems that drive those actions. If bitcoin didn't exist you'd presumably be doing something else to feed your family, so the question in my mind is this: - what real world utility is realised by the introduction of a new system? - what real world cost is realis…

While your qualitative descriptions of utility and assessments I mostly find roughly accurate (pure opinion on both our part, and I will nitpick and say it's great when benefit-to-labor ratio is high), the quantitative balance is subjecive opinion. You've simply analyzed and decided the ratio is poor. I've looked at it and find the opinion the ratio is excellent. But it's true crypto doesn't care either way and is exceedingly difficult to squash. Ultimately I think it is on the power producers and consumers to achieve how to eliminate externality associated with electricity use; playing whack-a-mole with whatever people use their electricity on (AI, crypto, video games, whatever) is just patching the issue.

And thus brings us to the reason why crypto is an ever popular debate on HN. At the end of the day even if you find crypto morally bad, there's no universal shock to the conscious for using crypto like there would be for murder/rape/theft. Some see crypto as sinner and other see it as saint. You seem to acknowledge a little of everything but weigh different factors differently than others. At the end of the day given the impossibility of banning crypto and the number of people on both sides, I just don't see it going away without a superior replacement filling the spot. For me this is a great thing, but for many it's going to be a point of contention and outrage for a long time. I will go one respecting the choice for some not to use it and hopefully others will peacefully implore us to stop if they find it wrong, but I think it's going to take violence and an oppressive enforcement mechanism to force me and many others to stop. Good luck.

Re: Is Bitcoin Down or Just Me?

#206

Post by beaconstudios »

notch656a wrote: post #205
beaconstudios wrote: post #192

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Once again, I don't blame you at all for engaging in investment or speculation or whatever. I'm not concerned with individual action, I'm concerned with the systems that drive those actions. If bitcoin didn't exist you'd presumably be doing something else to feed your family, so the question in my mind is this: - what real world utility is realised by the introduction of a new system? - what real world cost is realis…

While your qualitative descriptions of utility and assessments I mostly find roughly accurate (pure opinion on both our part, and I will nitpick and say it's great when benefit-to-labor ratio is high), the quantitative balance is subjecive opinion. You've simply analyzed and decided the ratio is poor. I've looked at it and find the opinion the ratio is excellent. But it's true crypto doesn't care either way and is ex…

I'm more lamenting crypto's existence than waving the guards over to come shoot people. I don't see how bitcoin can at all be a positive thing on a systemic level when it's primary purpose is financial speculation and scamming (neither of which are materially productive) and its primary cost is massive amounts of CO2. Of course it can be individually beneficial - mass murders are financially beneficial to funeral directors, but I don't think they're good in the general sense. And that's basically how I see crypto advocates - advocating for something immoral because it benefits them financially. Which is about all I expect from libertarians, to be fair.

Re: Is Bitcoin Down or Just Me?

#207

Post by analog31 »

notch656a wrote: post #200
analog31 wrote: post #188

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Would those stocks be denominated in Syrian currency, or something else? Indeed, as I've said in the past, money is a technology, and different technologies can be applied to different purposes. The "major" world currencies are designed to be used as a temporary store of value, medium of exchange, and instrument of economic policy. Bitcoin could be applied towards different purposes. >>> There's a lot of value in thi…

Stocks would continue to be denominated in shares. I've never heard of a stock being denominated in currency, but maybe there is one out there like that. A share is usually something like I own 1/N of the interest in the company so the formula of ownership is m/N where m is number shares you own and N is the number of total shares (some simplification here, but roughly accurate). Market clearing determines how much p…

Ah, that's fair.

Re: Is Bitcoin Down or Just Me?

#208

Post by analog31 »

notch656a wrote: post #201
analog31 wrote: post #124

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If not for the relative regularization of commerce provided by corporate law, and relative stability achieved through economic policy, I think there would be no investment in great ventures of the scale needed to build the electric grid, semiconductor manufacturing, telecommunications, etc. The limitation of liability granted to the shareholders of corporations is the granddaddy of all entitlements, because it enable…

Those achievements are through cooperative contracts and agreements. That can happen without US government. They can even happen without any government at all. Government after all is just a body with a monopoly on violence.

I don't think contracts can replace law. Imagine having to read and understand a unique 3000 page contract in order to buy a share of stock, or a house, or to get married. Imagine trying to do something like loan money if you have no way of knowing what someone's existing financial obligations are. I think the volume of economic activity would plummet.

"Monopoly on violence" is something I've heard about before. Is this theory supported by evidence? Actually I think that a monopoly on violence might be a good thing. The number of bodies that can engage in violence is either 0 or 1, or many.

I read a translation of Njal's Saga which takes place in pre-literate Iceland. The erstwhile "government" had no monopoly on violence, except to assign cash damages in lawsuits. What the saga describes is basically a continuous blood feud.

Re: Is Bitcoin Down or Just Me?

#209

Post by notch656a »

beaconstudios wrote: post #206
notch656a wrote: post #205

Earlier quoted context omitted.

While your qualitative descriptions of utility and assessments I mostly find roughly accurate (pure opinion on both our part, and I will nitpick and say it's great when benefit-to-labor ratio is high), the quantitative balance is subjecive opinion. You've simply analyzed and decided the ratio is poor. I've looked at it and find the opinion the ratio is excellent. But it's true crypto doesn't care either way and is ex…

I'm more lamenting crypto's existence than waving the guards over to come shoot people. I don't see how bitcoin can at all be a positive thing on a systemic level when it's primary purpose is financial speculation and scamming (neither of which are materially productive) and its primary cost is massive amounts of CO2. Of course it can be individually beneficial - mass murders are financially beneficial to funeral dir…

>I don't see how bitcoin can at all be a positive thing on a systemic level when it's primary purpose is financial speculation and scamming

I understand this is all opinion on both sides. I would add this opnion risks overlooking, say, Argentinian free-lancers who are paid in crypto because the system surrounding them makes it untenable to use conventional banking. Or the jewler buying precious metals with litecoin to avoid credit card fees. Escaping a failed economic system like refugees in Venezuela receiving crypto remittance definitely seems like a systemic improvement for them.

I guess you could call using it for transaction to buy precious metal speculative, but even in that system the actual crypto transaction isn't speculative as it merely acts as a unit of trade to buy an underlying "speculative" investment (personally I don't consider PMs speculative investment but rather store of value that I don't desire the volatility to appreciate or depreciate.)

>its primary cost is massive amounts of CO2

So you hate electricity? Join the Amish.

>mass murders are financially beneficial to funeral directors

But this isn't true. The people killed have to die sometime, their death is assured to the funeral directors. Them living longer just means they're more likely to reproduce and generate a new human who in turn dies someday. Funeral directors are worse off by mass murder. I think this excellent allegory points out your economic short-sightedness. Funeral directors want people to live highly reproductive lives, not short lives.

> Of course it can be individually beneficial - mass murders

Now we have entered clown world where mass murder is the example given. How many mass murders actually happened specifically and only because of the existance of crypto? The only example even close I'm aware of is Ross Ulbricht's alleged murder plot that was never even prosecuted thus we have no idea if it was true.

>advocating for something immoral because it benefits them financially

So basically anyone advocating for using dollars? I see crypto like a hammer, it's a tool that can be used morally, immorraly, or merely in a morally neutral fashion.

>Which is about all I expect from libertarians, to be fair.

Is this supposed to be some sort of ad-hominem attack?

>Which is about all I expect from libertarians

I have a hard time making sweeping generalizations about morality based on one's political choice.

Re: Is Bitcoin Down or Just Me?

#210

Post by dylkil »

amelius wrote: post #94
arthurz wrote: post #87

Bitcoin, or any Crypto, Block Chain, are too complex, unfortunately, to understand, and therefore is a huge barrier to their adoption. Whoever comes to an easy way of doing the digital currency first will win big. One other turn off remains: is to solve the material part, how to turn crypto back into Fiat Money so it really seamlessly works and not entangled into revenue control traps, losses on exchange between netw…

> Bitcoin, or any Crypto, Block Chain, are too complex, unfortunately, to understand That's a feature to make them look less like a Ponzi scheme.

Very true, I even think satoshi wrote that somewhere on bitcointalk back in the day, something along the lines of "I have designed bitcoin, it solves byzantine general problem. This solution is extremely complex so it should hide the fact what ive really made is a ponzi scheme"
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