Is Bitcoin Down or Just Me? • Hacker News Board

Re: Is Bitcoin Down or Just Me?

#181

Post by Mhaea » Sat, Jan 08, 2022, 9:40 PM UTC

anderber wrote: post #110

beaconstudios wrote: post #54

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There is a meaningful service cost, it's just paid for by mining. Environmentally there's also a massive cost, one that is not offset by the benefits bitcoin brings - which is primarily financial speculation and scams. Cryptocurrency is probably one of the worst inventions in recent memory.

> Cryptocurrency is probably one of the worst inventions in recent memory Keep in mind that not all Cryptocurrency use mining. Nano, for example, is zero fee, environmentally friendly coin that is incredibly fast. Bitcoin gets all the talk but there are some great and interesting tech out there. Get yourself a wallet ( https://natrium.io/ ) and I'll send you some so you can try it out. https://nano.org/

No post body was provided.

Re: Is Bitcoin Down or Just Me?

#182

Post by SantalBlush » Sat, Jan 08, 2022, 9:43 PM UTC

Andrew_nenakhov wrote: post #149

SantalBlush wrote: post #137

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Carbon pollution is not just a one-time cost, it is a debt that carries a massive interest rate with it that will be paid for generations. So whatever benefits someone else might reap from Bitcoin, it certainly isn't worth it to me.

People use way more energy for dumb heating. In my region humans can't survive in winter without it. There is no reason why mining rigs can't be used for 'smart' heating, heat being a byproduct of mining. It is not done currently only because the energy use of bitcoin is so miniscule compared to other uses, that it's not even worthy to bother yet . Down the road, it'll likely change, but currently complaints about 'm…

If the energy use of bitcoin was minuscule while heating a building, and it could generate mining rewards while doing so, then people would be using it for that purpose. They aren't.

Re: Is Bitcoin Down or Just Me?

#183

Post by matheusmoreira » Sat, Jan 08, 2022, 9:43 PM UTC

samarama wrote: post #167

matheusmoreira wrote: post #65

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> can we at least agree that it is an astounding engineering achievement As the first cryptocurrency, it's certainly an incredible innovation and idea. However, it's already outdated technology. Bitcoin failed to become everything it was idealized to be. It's not anonymous. It's not private. It's not fungible. It's not decentralized. It's not unregulated. It's not even a currency since transactions are not cheap and…

It was never meant to be private or anonymous. You’re creating huge strawmen here. Bitcoin is definitely fungible and decentralised. You’re using a lot of words that you don’t know what they mean.

> Bitcoin is definitely fungible

Run your coins through a mixing service then try to deposit them at an exchange and cash out.

Re: Is Bitcoin Down or Just Me?

#184

Post by 8note » Sat, Jan 08, 2022, 9:49 PM UTC

Andrew_nenakhov wrote: post #149

SantalBlush wrote: post #137

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Carbon pollution is not just a one-time cost, it is a debt that carries a massive interest rate with it that will be paid for generations. So whatever benefits someone else might reap from Bitcoin, it certainly isn't worth it to me.

People use way more energy for dumb heating. In my region humans can't survive in winter without it. There is no reason why mining rigs can't be used for 'smart' heating, heat being a byproduct of mining. It is not done currently only because the energy use of bitcoin is so miniscule compared to other uses, that it's not even worthy to bother yet . Down the road, it'll likely change, but currently complaints about 'm…

Resistive heating is still dumb heating.

Smart heating involves heat concentration, not heat production

Re: Is Bitcoin Down or Just Me?

#185

Post by notch656a » Sat, Jan 08, 2022, 9:51 PM UTC

beaconstudios wrote: post #176

notch656a wrote: post #166

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>Are you buying precious metals in the abstract, commodities market sense or are you manufacturing? Because if its the former, I still don't think that's a net positive. Y'all told me crypto was bad and now I'm bad for dumping crypto to buy precious metals? The litecoin transaction I do uses $0.02 of electricity. $0.02. Ever left a lightbulb on longer than you should have? Spent $0.02 in gas to go to the bank to get…

Well, it's pretty simple really - I'm not a big fan of financialisation. I think it's done some pretty serious harm to the world - even many libertarians, simple minded though they may be, have the good sense to point out that wall street is bad. Now I don't really blame you personally for day trading or buying gold as a store of value or whatever, but it isn't helping your argument that bitcoin is doing anything goo…

Well what is your solution for the common man TODAY then, to do in the meantime before all your dreams of a more equitable or reasonable society come true? You don't seem to like wall street so stocks are out. You've bashed precious metals as not being a net positive. Crypto is out because it makes it makes smoky the bear cry. Dollars have reached a ~7% inflation on CPI and even worst inflation against assets. Most bond yields aren't even reaching inflation rate. Just what the hell am I supposed to do? When will you stop thinking of me as a sinner for doing something, anything, to keep some safety for the wellbeing of my family? Would you think better of me if I shorted USD by taking out a loan and over-extending the hell out of myself to buy property instead? (Nope, can't do that last one because that's financialization.)

Are you gonna be there to personally bail out my whole family if we lose our jobs? Can you withstand that burden? Maybe that makes me evil. At least I don't stay awake at night wondering if I can buy more diapers and milk if I get axed at work tomorrow.

>Well, it's pretty simple really - I'm not a big fan of financialisation.

How do you see as buying precious metals with proceeds of labor being financialization? Do you think the $0.02 financial service cost from the transaction as really being larger than the financial cost of if I had went to the bank and got a big pile of cash, or if I had used a credit card? No, the "financialization" has lessened. The wikipedia article I read states it's a period where debt-to-equity ratios increase and financial services account for increasing share of national income. Explain how buying precious metals without debt is financialization. I can't even get a loan against personal custody of precious metals, if anything it _decreases_ my access to "financialization."

>bitcoin is doing anything good if it is literally just "wall street but with massive energy costs, less regulation, and full of even more scammers and financially illiterate".

I don't think that's the advantage of bitcoin, even if you describe it that way. The advantage of bitcoin is decentralization and lack of centralized trust -- packaged into electronic form.

Re: Is Bitcoin Down or Just Me?

#186

Post by 8note » Sat, Jan 08, 2022, 9:51 PM UTC

cft wrote: post #60

beaconstudios wrote: post #54

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There is a meaningful service cost, it's just paid for by mining. Environmentally there's also a massive cost, one that is not offset by the benefits bitcoin brings - which is primarily financial speculation and scams. Cryptocurrency is probably one of the worst inventions in recent memory.

>Cryptocurrency is probably one of the worst inventions in recent memory. Do you have a source for this fact? It might survive the 50 year old fiat dollar experiment. Until 50 years ago, there has not been a currency that wasn't backed up by something that was beyond the government

Gold isn't backed up by anything.

If anything, government is a stronger backing than before

Re: Is Bitcoin Down or Just Me?

#187

Post by nojster » Sat, Jan 08, 2022, 9:52 PM UTC

hartator wrote: post #126

anderber wrote: post #110

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Cryptocurrency is probably one of the worst inventions in recent memory Keep in mind that not all Cryptocurrency use mining. Nano, for example, is zero fee, environmentally friendly coin that is incredibly fast. Bitcoin gets all the talk but there are some great and interesting tech out there. Get yourself a wallet ( https://natrium.io/ ) and I'll send you some so you can try it out. https://nano.org/

I am curious as well. I’ve created a wallet: nano_1g6bkdkp9h6y4594sa3kiyu4xdmfz3nbj9z4zeptrdatcztpprcdsno5p6nr How is it secure if it’s not doing any wasteful mining though?

The general answer is: through proof of stake.

Since this is HN, you might enjoy this paper: https://arxiv.org/abs/0805.2815 originating from a project called Cardano, which has published dozens of peer reviewed papers (not only on arxiv), presented continuously at EuroCRYPT and works with great academics from “boring” fields (at least to most CS students) such as formal verification.

The main gist in pos (to which Cardano showed the first viable solution that does not have extensive unbonding periods or requires centralized coordination) is that stake pool operators (similar but different to miners in Bitcoin) are chosen randomly to validate the next block based on how much tokens are staked with them. The incentive system to keep these SPOs truthful is outlined in detail in the above mentioned paper.

You basically do not let everyone hunt one complex problem (where all but one miner waste their energy to secure the network) but build a system to chose one to then perform a validation. This decreases energy consumption of the overall network substantially.

Re: Is Bitcoin Down or Just Me?

#188

Post by analog31 » Sat, Jan 08, 2022, 9:55 PM UTC

notch656a wrote: post #175

analog31 wrote: post #151

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sounds like the next startup mecca. Now, before bitcoin, where did smart people put their savings? Probably, any money that wasn't needed for immediate liquidity went into dollars or euro or securities denominated in those currencies. The present state of the art is that cryptocurrency is an arbitrage that converts subsidized electricity into value that can be transported out of the country.

Without bitcoin I would still advise putting savings in stocks, bonds, a little precious metals maybe. I don't see bitcoin as savings as much as a currency or insurance policy against all your material assets and bank accounts being seized and/or stolen. >that can be transported out of the country. There's a lot of value in this though, no? The 10k limit on undeclared financial instruments held in your personal custo…

Would those stocks be denominated in Syrian currency, or something else?

Indeed, as I've said in the past, money is a technology, and different technologies can be applied to different purposes. The "major" world currencies are designed to be used as a temporary store of value, medium of exchange, and instrument of economic policy. Bitcoin could be applied towards different purposes.

>>> There's a lot of value in this though, no?

Sure, a subsidy is by definition a source of value.

Re: Is Bitcoin Down or Just Me?

#189

Post by zionic » Sat, Jan 08, 2022, 9:57 PM UTC

Yuioup wrote: post #130

anderber wrote: post #110

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Cryptocurrency is probably one of the worst inventions in recent memory Keep in mind that not all Cryptocurrency use mining. Nano, for example, is zero fee, environmentally friendly coin that is incredibly fast. Bitcoin gets all the talk but there are some great and interesting tech out there. Get yourself a wallet ( https://natrium.io/ ) and I'll send you some so you can try it out. https://nano.org/

I keep hearing bitcoin apologists saying "Bitcoin is environmentally unfriendly but... check this out" as if that would solve the record temperatures we're having at the moment. How about we stop using cryptocurrency completely. Time for the UN to get together and get this banned.

No post body was provided.

Re: Is Bitcoin Down or Just Me?

#190

Post by dan-robertson » Sat, Jan 08, 2022, 10:00 PM UTC

OnlineGladiator wrote: post #159

dan-robertson wrote: post #144

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I understand what market cap is but I don’t understand why it is relevant to your point. Apple is the same order of magnitude as bitcoin but you claim the media would care about a 10% move in the former but not the latter. Firstly it doesn’t make sense to me because bitcoin isn’t a company, nor is it made of them so this doesn’t feel like a like-for-like comparison. Secondly it doesn’t make sense to me because I don’…

I was saying Apple is the S&P 500 and Bitcoin is a random midsize company - it was an analogy. No analogy is perfect though, and you can certainly poke holes in mine (as you have). > Secondly it doesn’t make sense to me because I don’t understand why market cap should be related to media reactions to volatility. Because larger amounts of money matter more than smaller amounts of money. That's all. Penny stocks can fl…

I put it to you that market cap is not a particularly relevant quantity but the thing that matters is mostly a mix of retail exposure and expected volatility (as well as eg media interest). Bitcoin is basically expected to be volatile (which is why 10% down is not news). I think you were trying to make a point about retail exposure rather than market cap, but that does not sufficiently describe why the media care because a big move in something that is meant to be stable (e.g. some fixed income index) is smaller in percentage terms than a big move in something that is expected to be less stable (like an equity index).