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Show HN: BookStack – An open source wiki platform and alternative to Confluence

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Re: Show HN: BookStack – An open source wiki platform and alternative to Confluence

#151
post #135

Glad to see any alternatives to confluence (or Atlassian in general). I've used Confluence for a good 4 years or so and for the life of me, I can not fathom why anyone would use this for storing documentation for code etc, as opposed to storing things direct in a repo. I can understand it's use somewhat for business folks, but even then, the way of organising things is abysmal, every solution (such as rich text editi…

There are a couple reasons I prefer docs in Confluence to docs in repo: - I can update the docs without going through Git peer-review (admittedly this is a culture issue, not a technical one). - We have "code-tangential" docs already in Confluence and it's nice to have one place to search - Non-devs (like lawyers) find Confluence more familiar I've taken to putting a link to the Confluence docs in the README so folks…

> I've taken to putting a link to the Confluence docs

Middle ground I've found on some projects: very detailed code/data-oriented notes are in markdown in the repo, tied to a PR. Those doc files may reference external items like confluence pages or specific tracking ticket/URLs that relate to the code at hand.

I was on a team that had everything in confluence, and everything was impossible to find. The closest I came to understanding it was the confluence docs were always initial plans, but were rarely updated. When updated, you wouldn't necessarily know if you needed to look through 5 versions to see earlier thinking, or which links to 'updates' confluence pages you needed to trawl through. It was as much a problem of a growing set of contributors and growing departments than anything else, but there was a new 'direction' every 6-9 months (when new folks would come in) and "this worked at my old company" so they'd document stuff however they wanted.

No one on the dev team bothered to ever look there for anything, because it was simply pointless. Few people ever looked at it for anything more than "recent updates" to see what's changed in the last 2-3 weeks. Discoverability on the size of that project (and this is 'only' 5 years old ~80 people) was just useless.

A handful of folks did keep 'onboarding' stuff relatively up to date, but it was less than a year old at that point. I suspect that if those folks moved on, those docs may slowly rot.

On the whole, keep written docs both updated and useful and findable to a growing number of people with disparate needs and different contexts and backgrounds... it's a lot harder than it might seem when first considering it. Even if you have the people on a team with the aptitude for it, it's usually low priority in every work cycle, and the first casualty when trying to hit deadlines.

Re: Show HN: BookStack – An open source wiki platform and alternative to Confluence

#152
post #122

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Confluence is terrible in all kinds of other ways. To be frank, it's the worst company documentation software I've ever used. Discoverability is terrible and it's easy to end up in a situation with thousands of pages that quickly fall out of maintenance because features for organization are an after thought. Its own markup is terrible and its Markdown import support similarly so. Most wikis are terrible at evergreen…

> Confluence is terrible in all kinds of other ways. I disagree, Confluence is used by tens of thousands of organizations and they don't have a very good Sales strategy, that means a lot of business choose them when they could have choose something else. So I can't buy that it is terrible everywhere. Can we do better ? Hell yeah. But I agree with you that most of Confluence competitors are in the SMB space even thoug…

> Confluence is used by tens of thousands of organizations and they don't have a very good Sales strategy, that means a lot of business choose them when they could have choose something else. So I can't buy that it is terrible everywhere.

I don't believe the number of users in an enterprise segment buying into a software is at all indicative of the usefulness of a piece of software. Atlassian products are typically sold between people who will not be the primary users of that software.

I have yet to see a SWE missing or desiring an Atlassian product. GitHub and other SaaS products yes but never Atlassian.

I also disagree that evergreen notes aren't suitable for teams. Notes that receive a lot of attention, or are high touch, are by definition evergreen. We need more of these in orgs but most of us don't know how to tend to our companies digital gardens. A huge part of it is wordly digital cruft akin to technical debt that accrues. As it grows in size it compounds the problem of discoverability.

Note-taking is a skill that receives precious little attention, despite being so critical to knowledge work AKA anything SWEs work with daily.

Re: Show HN: BookStack – An open source wiki platform and alternative to Confluence

#153

I remember considering BookStack while looking for a (surprise) replacement for Confluence. The main thing that led me to stop considering it pretty quickly is precisely the concept of books - I find it both unnecessarily complicated and unnecessarily limiting. My Org now uses DokuWiki. It has a lot of issues (the prosemirror visual editor is a good start, but in beta and out of development, for example). But it's al…

As a former DokuWiki user (both pro and privately) the biggest issue is when you want to migrate from DokuWiki.

I managed to migrate my private docs from DokuWiki to markdown but it wasn't easy and it took some manual editing. I'm much happier knowing that it's in Markdown format simply because of the options that opens up for me.

Re: Show HN: BookStack – An open source wiki platform and alternative to Confluence

#154
post #122

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Confluence is terrible in all kinds of other ways. I disagree, Confluence is used by tens of thousands of organizations and they don't have a very good Sales strategy, that means a lot of business choose them when they could have choose something else. So I can't buy that it is terrible everywhere. Can we do better ? Hell yeah. But I agree with you that most of Confluence competitors are in the SMB space even thoug…

> Confluence is used by tens of thousands of organizations and they don't have a very good Sales strategy, that means a lot of business choose them when they could have choose something else. So I can't buy that it is terrible everywhere. I don't believe the number of users in an enterprise segment buying into a software is at all indicative of the usefulness of a piece of software. Atlassian products are typically s…

At the end of the day, people need to be able to discover notes if you want these to be useful. Just talking about evergreen notes without offering a way to discover those notes by anyone is useless.

Re: Show HN: BookStack – An open source wiki platform and alternative to Confluence

#155
post #154

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Confluence is used by tens of thousands of organizations and they don't have a very good Sales strategy, that means a lot of business choose them when they could have choose something else. So I can't buy that it is terrible everywhere. I don't believe the number of users in an enterprise segment buying into a software is at all indicative of the usefulness of a piece of software. Atlassian products are typically s…

At the end of the day, people need to be able to discover notes if you want these to be useful. Just talking about evergreen notes without offering a way to discover those notes by anyone is useless.

Here's where we agree! I'd love better discoverability built in to these products. It'd be a huge boon, personally, at my workplace (that uses Confluence :-().

Re: Show HN: BookStack – An open source wiki platform and alternative to Confluence

#156
post #64

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Future XWiki employee (should start in March!). Feel free to reach out to XWiki [1] [2], they'll be happy to answer your question and address your specific needs. They are nice. Feel free to contact me if you'd prefer but I'll be less competent than them for obvious reasons. I don't know many things about XWiki yet, but the main difference between MediaWiki and XWiki is probably the X in XWiki (eXtensible). XWiki is…

There is a "semantic" extension to MediaWiki that makes it easier to support many enterprise use cases with data visualizations, custom queries (potentially referencing information from multiple wiki pages) and the like. It is somewhat widely used for wikis other than Wikipedia, that can simply defer to the Wikidata project for those needs.

SMW works okay but if you have technical ability, I'd recommend Cargo (https://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Extension:Cargo) instead. It's a somewhat limited SQL wrapper (limited - e.g. subqueries aren't supported, which can be annoying on occasion but tbh I've only missed them maybe 3 or 4 times, wiki queries tend not to be too complicated) which is roughly equivalent to SMW in maybe 50% of use cases I've encountered, inferior in maybe 2%, and significantly better in the rest.

It definitely has a bit of a higher learning curve than SMW, especially for non-developers, and even for developers there's some kinda weird stuff going on with it (e.g. they have this HOLDS syntax sugar and list-type fields as an answer to SMW's ability to express one-to-many relations a bit more naturally than sql can; also there's this cargo_attach parser function that I forget to do 80% of the time and that's why my tables don't rebuild properly).

Anyway if anyone does use MediaWiki and is choosing between these extensions I'm happy to talk to you about them, this is what I do for my job & I have several years experience with both (though my SMW experience is somewhat outdated, since I switched to Cargo several years ago, and only recently have started using SMW again, and that only tangentially).

Re: Show HN: BookStack – An open source wiki platform and alternative to Confluence

#157

Can anyone with experience with multiple wiki platforms compare this with XWiki and/or MediaWiki. I may be asked to update $WORK's wiki, which is currently MoinMoin (IIRC), and am looking for anyone with more experience so I don't have to start testing from scratch. I've run MediaWiki before, but am not beholden to using it just because of past/current familiarity. Importing from MoinMoin would be nice, but not absol…

Mediawiki is page focused, needing a lot of tweaking to make it act like something other than a completely open public page editor. Trying to collect pages is annoying ugly; about the best you can do is with "categories." Mediawiki tries to do too much with document metatags and whatnot. Mediawiki is ugly/outdated looking (IMHO) and requires lots of php config file editing. Bookstack has a lot more inherent document…

> Trying to collect pages is annoying ugly; about the best you can do is with "categories."

With vanilla mediawiki, sure. If you use Cargo or SMW, you can do pretty much anything you want, especially with Cargo. Add in Lua (Scribunto extension) and you have effectively a full extra layer in your stack.

(There's also DPL (Dynamic Page List extension) as an option; if what you're doing is easy enough to express, and you're just trying to build lists of pages, you may be able to get away with just doing DPL queries and nothing else beyond that.)

It might be more technically complex than you want it to be, but it's definitely not limited to categories.

Re: Show HN: BookStack – An open source wiki platform and alternative to Confluence

#158

Glad to see any alternatives to confluence (or Atlassian in general). I've used Confluence for a good 4 years or so and for the life of me, I can not fathom why anyone would use this for storing documentation for code etc, as opposed to storing things direct in a repo. I can understand it's use somewhat for business folks, but even then, the way of organising things is abysmal, every solution (such as rich text editi…

In my old (and soon current again) shop we used confluence extensively, to get the best from both worlds we usually kept the documentation next to the code in markdown or asciidoc files and synchronized them to confluence in a CI/CD pipeline (confluence was read only for these sections) maybe I can open source these helpers when I'm back... a two way merge was also in the making :). we could sync whole file trees with automatic link crosslink generation, asset management and versioning support in confluence

Re: Show HN: BookStack – An open source wiki platform and alternative to Confluence

#159
post #54

I can't say I would use BookStack. The demo doesn't show the same sort of ease of use that Confluence has, nor the features. I really like Outline https://www.getoutline.com/ as it is open source, self hosted and free if you don't use the Enterprise features. It really does seem to be a Confluence replacement. https://www.getoutline.com/compare/confluence-alternative

You need to use slack or google for the selfhost setup. Which is non starter for many people.

Any OIDC compatible authentication provider works now, FWIW

Re: Show HN: BookStack – An open source wiki platform and alternative to Confluence

#160
post #154

Earlier quoted context omitted.

At the end of the day, people need to be able to discover notes if you want these to be useful. Just talking about evergreen notes without offering a way to discover those notes by anyone is useless.

Here's where we agree! I'd love better discoverability built in to these products. It'd be a huge boon, personally, at my workplace (that uses Confluence :-().

That's where Roam Research has a point. Creating a graph is appealing, as it is easier to browse and so discover things. That's also how Wikipedia works. But Wikipedia would never have worked without Google.

In organizations the best thing to do imo is to have everyone follow the same rules. Even bad rules that everyone follow is better than everyone following its own rules. And that's clearly one thing that Confluence sucks at. But the rules can't either be the same for anyone anywhere, so there is some balance to find. The other area that can help discoverability is curation

I would be happy to have a chat with you, don't hesitate to reach out to paul at dokkument com

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