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What the world will be like in a hundred years (1922)

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641–650 of 659 posts

Re: What the world will be like in a hundred years (1922)

#641

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The idea being that while liberalism does a decent job of ensuring that the government doesn't oppress you, it does nothing to ensure that other people don't oppress you. The government does this by... oppressing you, by limiting your choices and your freedom. Nature itself is oppressive. We are all born naked and hungry and at the mercy of others. This does not constitute oppression by other people, and no amount…

Ensuring a minimum standard of living doesn't dictate how people interact peacefully, not does it require oppression, you're attacking a straw man.

> doesn't dictate how people interact peacefully

It very much does if it involves limiting what terms employers and employees can agree to. And it certainly requires oppression if you're going to seize and redistribute wealth to finance the required bureaucracy.

Re: What the world will be like in a hundred years (1922)

#642

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This doesn’t square with your definitions of legitimate claims on property. Taxes are “lawful”, therefore under your framework, they are neither theft nor robbery. Unless, somehow, lawfulness has nothing to do with laws. In which case what you’re saying is just straight up nonsense.

Anything that we enact into law is "lawful", it's circular reasoning. It doesn't say anything about the ethics of the situation. If 80% of people agree democratically to murder the other 20%, it will be lawful, but does it suddenly become ethical? And if they change the word so that it's "lawful execution" does that make it OK? In the same vein, I'm using the common definition of "robbery" without any legitimizing wi…

So many words, and yet still no coherent sense of what makes something “lawful” or not.

A couple comments ago you said it would be ok to murder someone for stealing an apple.

Re: What the world will be like in a hundred years (1922)

#643

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Anything that we enact into law is "lawful", it's circular reasoning. It doesn't say anything about the ethics of the situation. If 80% of people agree democratically to murder the other 20%, it will be lawful, but does it suddenly become ethical? And if they change the word so that it's "lawful execution" does that make it OK? In the same vein, I'm using the common definition of "robbery" without any legitimizing wi…

So many words, and yet still no coherent sense of what makes something “lawful” or not. A couple comments ago you said it would be ok to murder someone for stealing an apple.

Anything written into law is lawful. I'm trying to discern what's ethical to write into law. It would help if you answered the questions I posed.

Re: What the world will be like in a hundred years (1922)

#644

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Absolutely! I do not know any single word or short phrase that describes "the freedom [you are] referring to", since as far as I can tell, the concept you use is known only among certain libertarians where it is called "freedom". Perhaps it would be "the absence of a hypothetical[0] threat of legally sanctioned violence from 'the government' in response to actions outside of a certain limited range". (Personally, if…

I'd take my definition from The Declaration of the Rights of Man[1]: > Liberty consists in the freedom to do everything which injures no one else; hence the exercise of the natural rights of each man has no limits except those which assure to the other members of the society the enjoyment of the same rights. > you go into a convenient Half-Price Books mask-free The problem with this scenario isn't the liberty of the…

"I'm of the opinion that, like my house, under what conditions I choose to admit people to my business is none of anyone else's concern."

...

"...which injures no one else..."

Re: What the world will be like in a hundred years (1922)

#645

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yeah, sometimes legal strategies are odd. I guess the point is that 2A was always about militias; essentially everything up until Thomas' concurrence in Printz considered 2A in the context of militia readiness, and the draft of 2A was even more explicitly about militias. It's sort of unassailable, but obviously not actually unassailable, because now we have Heller . Myself, I think 2A is just an anachronism. Militias…

You make several good points, but this whole "what can civilians with pew-pew weapons do against a modern army?" argument has been put to bed in actual combat now. See Vietnam and Afghanistan for humbling examples. Not to say it wouldn't be bloody, but victory is not assured by the technologically superior force, apparently.

Oh, definitely. But like, those weren't thriving countries at the time right. In any hypothetical US revolt, things go south very fast. Schools are closed, roads are closed, hospitals are commandeered, power stations are commandeered. Core internet infrastructure is shut down. We're talking about 1st to 3rd world country in under 2 years.

So to me, that kind of means the terrorists win. China/Russia would like nothing more than for that to happen--it would be a self-inflicted wound of insane magnitude, with global consequences. I don't know that any political issue is so bad that it's worth solving at that cost. Maybe climate change, but the groups of people who are heavily armed and the groups of people who care about climate change are mostly separate.

So I still think 2A is an anachronism. I'm not sure even TJ would agree that refreshing the tree of liberty at the cost of the west makes any sense at all. The world has just become unrecognizable in the last 250 years.

Re: What the world will be like in a hundred years (1922)

#646

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Ensuring a minimum standard of living doesn't dictate how people interact peacefully, not does it require oppression, you're attacking a straw man.

> doesn't dictate how people interact peacefully It very much does if it involves limiting what terms employers and employees can agree to. And it certainly requires oppression if you're going to seize and redistribute wealth to finance the required bureaucracy.

> It very much does if it involves limiting what terms employers and employees can agree to

You don't really need to do this if you provide a strong welfare state. Provide government healthcare and benefits to all citizens equivalent to say $10 an hour, and you don't need to limit how employers and employees interact. They have the freedom to quit.

> And it certainly requires oppression

So we come back to the beginning: all taxation is oppression?

Keep in mind that my scheme actually probably involves less government force than yours. People will be less violent, requiring less respondent force, if given a minimum standard of living. So do you want the government to use more force? Or is "oppression" the issue, I can't keep up.

Re: What the world will be like in a hundred years (1922)

#647

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'd take my definition from The Declaration of the Rights of Man[1]: > Liberty consists in the freedom to do everything which injures no one else; hence the exercise of the natural rights of each man has no limits except those which assure to the other members of the society the enjoyment of the same rights. > you go into a convenient Half-Price Books mask-free The problem with this scenario isn't the liberty of the…

" I'm of the opinion that, like my house, under what conditions I choose to admit people to my business is none of anyone else's concern. " ... " ...which injures no one else... "

How does denying someone my cooperation injure them?

Re: What the world will be like in a hundred years (1922)

#648

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> doesn't dictate how people interact peacefully It very much does if it involves limiting what terms employers and employees can agree to. And it certainly requires oppression if you're going to seize and redistribute wealth to finance the required bureaucracy.

> It very much does if it involves limiting what terms employers and employees can agree to You don't really need to do this if you provide a strong welfare state. Provide government healthcare and benefits to all citizens equivalent to say $10 an hour, and you don't need to limit how employers and employees interact. They have the freedom to quit. > And it certainly requires oppression So we come back to the beginni…

> You don't really need to do this if you provide a strong welfare state

Why is providing a welfare state a prerequisite here? From where do you derive the need to protect people from the total consequences of their failure or misfortune by forcing the collective to bear the burden?

> all taxation is oppression?

Of course it is - it's robbery. Just like the draft is slavery. The important question is "What circumstances make it ethical to rob/enslave people?". They do exist, but they are quite limited.

> do you want the government to use more force

It's not about degrees of force, it's about what situations force is applied to. The only acceptable application of force (read violation of liberty) is to defend liberty itself from imminent danger. Applying any degree of force to compel cooperation is indistinguishable from that degree of slavery. What's the problem with strictly voluntary, at-will, consensual interaction between people?

Re: What the world will be like in a hundred years (1922)

#649

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> It very much does if it involves limiting what terms employers and employees can agree to You don't really need to do this if you provide a strong welfare state. Provide government healthcare and benefits to all citizens equivalent to say $10 an hour, and you don't need to limit how employers and employees interact. They have the freedom to quit. > And it certainly requires oppression So we come back to the beginni…

> You don't really need to do this if you provide a strong welfare state Why is providing a welfare state a prerequisite here? From where do you derive the need to protect people from the total consequences of their failure or misfortune by forcing the collective to bear the burden? > all taxation is oppression? Of course it is - it's robbery. Just like the draft is slavery. The important question is "What circumstan…

> From where do you derive the need to protect people from the total consequences of their failure or misfortune by forcing the collective to bear the burden?

I'll answer this with a question: you said elsewhere that its unethical to compel doctors to treat a patient. Let's assume that's the case. What happens when you are robbed by someone, shot, and your wallet is stolen, you even pass out from the shock and blood loss.

A bystander calls an ambulance. Then what? The ambulance service, the hospital (and the doctor) have no idea if you can pay for their services. Let's assume you can, you have fantastic insurance. What is the right way to resolve this situation? It seems to me your answer is that the hospital should have every right to refuse to serve people without identification (and in fact this is probably in the hospitals best interest, from a pure ROI perspective).

So do we throw our hands in the air and let some people who, by any account, don't deserve to die (they're insured, if their wallet wasn't stolen, there'd be no issue at all!) through no fault of their own, or do we protect people from the total consequence of their misfortune by providing some kind of guardrail?

A more general answer is that people, in aggregate, don't like the instability that comes from a lack of welfare state. If you provide absolutely no welfare state, and I lose my job and can't find a new one, it is very likely that the best thing for me to do is to steal from someone. And people generally speaking dislike that because unlike robbery from the government, which involves paperwork and court rooms, that kind of robbery really actually involves guns. And people seem to find suits and paperwork to be less force than guns.

So you pick your poison: a democratically controlled nonviolent robbery that you can influence and plan for, or a stochastic violent robbery that you can't control at all. Personally, I find paperwork to be less violent than a gun, but you have weird ideas about what constitutes violence, so I'm curious what you'll say.

> What's the problem with strictly voluntary, at-will, consensual interaction between people?

It doesn't exist. Is coercion voluntary? If it's violent to threaten someone's life by holding a gun to their head, why isn't it violent to withholding food they need to live (or the money they need to buy the food they need to live, or the healthcare they need to live, or the money they need for that healthcare)?

Re: What the world will be like in a hundred years (1922)

#650
post #139

What stands out to me is the prescience in the speed and penetration of technological advancements juxtaposed with an apparent blind spot for the advancements in social change. Even the most dire or utopian science fiction of the early to mid 20th century seems to reasonably accurately predict technological changes but somehow expects that future social structures will somehow fall into place or adapt to the technolo…

> where the topic of the day is distributed trustless computing No one in my circles talks about those things. Even the vast majority of crypto investors don't give a shit about "distributed" or "trustless" or "computing". The topics of the day are: 1. climate change 2. automation (especially logistics and war) 3. the tension between nationalism and globalization (both with respect to communication, commodity extract…

I feel like you just wanted to go on the attack for the examples I gave, I can definitely see where you're coming from. My point was that you can pick a tech, extrapolate a few decades, and you'll probably get a few wins. You wanted to attack my example of banks, notaries, parliamentary records etc becoming obsolete, since it's "not exciting". Sadly these boring things are the bedrock of civilisation, so exciting or not, if they become obsolete, then the technological and social fabric of society is impacted in some way or another. The boring changes are sometimes the most meaningful long-term.
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