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My First Impressions of Web3

moxie.org

401–410 of 1001 posts

Re: My First Impressions of Web3

#401

I'll be honest I had no idea that access to Ethereum is effectively gate-kept by two centralized entities (Infura, Alchemy). I knew there were only one or two true Ethereum full-nodes, but the impact of that never quite clicked. [edit] By "full node" I meant "archival node."

I'm curious what would happen if somebody uploaded illegal data (e.g. child porn, sensitive PII, or government secrets) to an Ethereum contract. Would these nodes be legally required to filter it? If you look at something like the Pirate Bay, it's not simply enough that you are an allegedly content-unaware service -- once you become aware of your service being used for or distributing something illegal, you are required to mitigate it. At the end of the day, these are businesses which operate within a jurisdiction and must act in self-preservation.

But at the point where they start filtering transactions/addresses, there's going to be big questions about what is the true view of the blockchain.

Re: My First Impressions of Web3

#402

I like Moxie's work and writings, and this article has some great points, but I can't get behind this: We should accept the premise that people will not run their own servers by designing systems that can distribute trust without having to distribute infrastructure. I'm not ready to give in. I am happy to leave "normal" (tech illiterate and politically apathetic) people behind to reach my decentralization goals. I th…

> I'm not ready to give in. I am happy to leave "normal" (tech illiterate and politically apathetic) people behind to reach my decentralization goals. I don't think we have to "leave "normal" [...] people behind". I don't like devices like Alexa, but FFS, look at what millions of people have installed and running 24/7 in their homes. Is someone seriously telling me that a dedicated engineering and marketing effort co…

> Is someone seriously telling me that a dedicated engineering and marketing effort couldn't build a similar consumer-centric device that functioned as a server

They already have, and their name is Synology: https://www.synology.com/en-us/products/DS120j

Re: My First Impressions of Web3

#403

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What does it mean to leave normal people behind? Surely you need to interact with them. For example, you can run your own mail server, but you will need to play by Google’s rules if you want anyone on Gmail to get your emails. So, it’s hard for me to picture what it means to personally decentralize without caring what the bulk of people do.

Email is inherently centralized due to DNS being centralized. Furthermore there is no rule that says I have to federate with any particular entity. They will take the loss.

Hm, I think my point might not have been clear enough. I would find it hard to function without interacting with central system, like sending an email to someone on gmail. Just today, I emailed a plumber on gmail, but it could easily have been an old friend or a relative or whatever.

How do you email the plumber, is my question?

Re: My First Impressions of Web3

#404
post #302

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Seems like you (and a vast majority of HN including Moxie) is tying web3 to several centralized front ends (Metamask/OpenSea). I saw this back in the 90's when a lot of people thought the internet was "Internet Explorer".

And that's one of Moxie's points: how exactly is web3 supposed to be avoiding the centralization that occurred on the web, when it's already at that point.

It’s not the same as web2. These web3 frontends don’t have moats or lock-in like Facebook or Google, because they don’t actually control the data. The data they serve is all from public ledgers. You can switch off of Infura in a second by changing your RPC url.

Re: My First Impressions of Web3

#405

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Me either. I had no idea that accessing a link to NFT-described content went through OpenSea for content that isn't even hosted by OpenSea. That's apparently a MetaMask thing. Supposedly a MetaMask wallet can connect to any willing node, but in practice they use the Infuria->OpenSea server. Yes, you can run your own Etherium node and server, and connect a MetaMask wallet to it.[1] As Moxie points out, nobody wants to…

> Worse, the blockchain does not, apparently, contain the hash of the data. It very often does, and it is certainly the case for most high-value NFTs. It is indeed not the case if you create your NFT on OpenSea and do not take the additional step of freezing the metadata. Also, there are many artworks that change, so a hash to a single file is not necessarily the right solution.

So if I own an NFT and make sure to store the hash, does that mean I also own all collisions?

Re: My First Impressions of Web3

#406

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes - a bit over-simplifying I admit. And Moxie said that it's "early days". However it turns out, it'll be fun to watch.

To be fair Moxie says it's only "early days" in the sense that the technology has failed to advance, since of course a significant quantity of time has passed since inception. In some ways, cryptocurrency’s failure to scale beyond relatively nascent engineering is what makes it possible to consider the days “early,” *since objectively it has already been a decade or more*.

Advancement in this space is going to be very non-linear.

Re: My First Impressions of Web3

#407

This article seems like it neatly encapsulates and explains why I've subconsciously held off from jumping into the Web3 space. It might be confirmation bias speaking, but I don't think I've seen anyone lampoon Web3 so thoroughly, and it's nice to have some well-reasoned explanations for why I feel the way I do. EDIT: A further thought: this article is the first I've read on Web3 that feels like it's actually importan…

I guess as some counterpoints: I kind of agree in some ways but i think he underplays the critical point that you have an option for voice and exit from the forming centralising forces (which do get established because people like convenience/reliability/familiarity) without sacrificing your data or belongings, you can leave without losses. That is a critical difference. His nft is delisted from a platform and his wa…

> Even nerds do not want to run their own servers at this point. Even organizations building software full time do not want to run their own servers at this point.

I want this to be wrong.

Broadband providers make it very difficult to run your own server. Server construction is also in a very bad place as well, so this has spread from consumers to companies. There are just too many externalities from all of your vendors that are left to you to solve and that opens up space for a small number of companies who have people who work on those problems as a full time job, amortized out over X vendors and Y customers.

Until or unless that changes, a bunch of things I'd like to have happen won't happen. I should be able to pull files from my home computer when I'm stuck in an airport in Paris. That was the original promise, but we ended up with something else that has a lot of rent-seeking involved.

I think there are a few people working on the servers problem, probably nowhere near enough, but Broadband companies are also largely to blame for this. I'm not sure if Starlink or municipal broadband that is run like power and water, are ways out. But what we have isn't going to work, and consolidation is just going to get worse and worse until someone fixes it.

Re: My First Impressions of Web3

#408
post #206

Earlier quoted context omitted.

MetaMask is a wallet, its not ingrained into any blockchain, your free to use alternatives, and many protocols don't support it. The centralized aspect of a chrome app and marketplace like opensea is very well know issue and talked about a lot in crypto, the problem of course comes down to lack of education, which is apparent in this very post.

Can you point me to where this insightful discussion happens? And where can I educate myself? 99,99% of content and forums I find online about crypto only care about promoting coins, nfts or services basing only on futuristic visionary promises, hyping up the users and attempts at FOMO. It's almost literal spam. This is the first time I read something that just explains how thing works from a technical standpoint and…

It is quite difficult because indeed everyone has a profit motive to shill. The only way I could get a good read on anything was by experimenting with the tech.

Re: My First Impressions of Web3

#409
> People don’t want to run their own servers, and never will.

This depends on what you mean by servers.

Nobody wants to pay money for dedicated hardware and experience service interruption if they fail to constantly provide it with power and internet.

But a lot of the need for "servers" could be eliminated by running a Tor onion service on your phone and accepting connections from peers. You can get e.g. direct messaging from this without any "servers" of your own, but also without any Facebooks playing MITM between you and your peers.

> A protocol moves much more slowly than a platform.

I could make two criticisms of this.

One, sometimes stable is good. We all whinge about the decades-old protocols that were designed for mainframes the size of buildings with less memory than a toothbrush, but now try to think of something you want from current day Reddit that you didn't get from ten years ago Reddit. Maybe the problem is some things got frozen before they were cooked, not that stability is bad once you have something that works.

Two, a lot of this is survivorship bias. If it's easy to push changes to all the clients you're either already centralized or you're susceptible to EEE. Protocols like that got absorbed into some centralized product already, so the ones that are left are the ones with more protocol implementations than there are tech companies. Then if there is any problem with the protocol at all it's impossible to make changes, but that's the very reason it's still in use.

If the other protocols eventually get replaced by something centralized, that eventuality only comes after the defects become fatal. When they're so bad that the problems exceed the network effect. But that's also the same time when you can release a new protocol version and people will adopt it for all the same reasons. You just need the replacement to be another protocol instead of a platform.

> Recreating this world

This seems to be a problem. We know generally what we want, e.g. P2P to the extent possible and completely fungible untrusted commodity servers when it isn't.

Then the people writing the code are also the people running the servers, so they're willing to write code that makes the servers stop being fungible and untrusted and we're right back where we started.

> This might suggest that decentralization itself is not actually of immediate practical or pressing importance to the majority of people downstream, that the only amount of decentralization people want is the minimum amount required for something to exist, and that if not very consciously accounted for, these forces will push us further from rather than closer to the ideal outcome as the days become less early.

Nobody cares about decentralization until the centralized entity becomes adversarial or unreliable, but then it's too late. The time to start caring about fire safety is not when you are already on fire.

Re: My First Impressions of Web3

#410
post #391

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Ethereum light clients will make it trivial to verify the state of the blockchain and interact with it without also having to store the entire blockchain. The nice thing is that you can depend on Infura for now, but if they ever attempt to be dishonest, you can easily switch to hosting your own node or light client. The cost of moving away from these centralized services is pretty low.

I think this is “the point”. This is like saying you can switch away from GMail by running your own mail server. People don’t want to run their own mail server. Will the ethereum light client run in metamask with no configuration? I’m afraid anything short of that is too heavy.

Yeah, you just change the RPC URL: https://docs.metamask.io/guide/rpc-api.html
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