California Considers Doubling Its Taxes • Hacker News Board

Re: California Considers Doubling Its Taxes

#291

Post by devmunchies » Fri, Jan 07, 2022, 11:01 PM UTC

tedyoung wrote: post #248

devmunchies wrote: post #51

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I hope Kaiser Permanente lobbies this or we can opt out. I've lived in many states and my exp with Kaiser in California is among the best. I don't see the state (especially bloated California) doing better. (I pay out of pocket via a side business, not from my current employer.)

> don't see the state (especially bloated California) doing better [than Kaiser Permanente] In what sense? What do you like about KP: the doctors, nurses, etc.? The billing department? Single-payer would not take the staff away. It would get rid of large swathes of the billing department that are pure waste. Not everyone has had your positive experience with KP. We switched away due to lack of availability of certain…

Operational efficiency. I’d compare it to Amazon vs usps. I pay for Prime which is like paying for Kaiser insurance, Amazon’s fleet is an just extension of Prime membership to improve my experience as a shopper and completely under their control (I can get 3 deliveries in a day on Sunday). USPS is less innovative because they less incentives to “wow” me.

Re: California Considers Doubling Its Taxes

#292

Post by cagey » Fri, Jan 07, 2022, 11:04 PM UTC

hermannj314 wrote: post #65

Thank you California! I now know where I will be spending the years of my life when I have no income and insanely high medical bills. Gonna stick in PA with our 3.07% while I am earning bank and healthy though.

Exactly! I moved out of CA at the end of 2020. I've recently retired, and have structured most of my spendable income in retirement to be tax sheltered, so if this passes (and depending on the taxation specifics of this plan, if it passes, vs my retirement income stream), it could easily make sense to move back: no more COBRA or other unsubsidized OOP health insurance payments for us!

Of course, even if the proposal becomes law, it might take a decade or two to come into full force (someone else mentioned CA's High Speed Rail project, but healthcare as it exists today is a far larger Gordian Knot), so I think I'll watch from the sidelines to see how such a grand plan works out in reality.

Re: California Considers Doubling Its Taxes

#293

Post by larkost » Fri, Jan 07, 2022, 11:07 PM UTC

subsubzero wrote: post #277

jjav wrote: post #271

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't understand this sentiment. If your net take-home pay goes up (or even stays the same), why would you care if the line item called "CA tax" goes up while the line item called "health insurance payment" goes to zero?

Because my line item - insurance payment is only $2350 out of pocket me for the year, the tax hike according to what we make (delta to our current taxes) would equate to a years worth of mortgage payments, which is a gigantic difference. In addition california already has a low income health plan called "covered california" so low income families are already covered without the need for doubling taxes.

I am certain that your "insurance payment" is missing out on the portion that your employer is paying. The big tax increase that the headline is talking about includes that. If you look at your paystub you can find the total cost, and I am sure you will be shocked at the number, it is very likely over the costs we are talking about here.

The headline hints that families would be paying those additional taxes, but if you read the details most of the additional taxes are on companies (and the best points that the article makes are about how those are structured in ways that may not make sense). They are trying to mislead you to be outraged in the headline, and it worked.

So the taxes that you and your employer pay would increase (that is what the headline is saying), but much if not all of that would be offset by the costs that you and your employer are currently paying.

Re: California Considers Doubling Its Taxes

#294

Post by cal5k » Fri, Jan 07, 2022, 11:08 PM UTC

perrylaj wrote: post #214

cal5k wrote: post #125

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If you want an extreme example of how bad a single payer system can get, look at Canada. Not only do we have a single-payer system, we've actually banned private pay of any kind for "medically necessary" services. The net effect is predictable - Canada consistently ranks very poorly in international health system comparisons. We have far fewer ICU beds, doctors, imaging machines, etc. per capita than peer nations, an…

> The net effect is predictable - Canada consistently ranks very poorly in international health system comparisons. Funny that despite this 'extreme example', Canadians have almost 3 years longer life expectancy than us in the US, are healthier throughout their lives, and have comparable or better outcomes with treatments. Where the US has better outcomes (e.g. - some forms of cancer, some organ transplants), it's on…

Life expectancy differences are entirely attributable to lifestyle. Americans are, on average, more likely to be obese than Canadians.

As for "fundamental right", this is not really how rights work and it's dangerous to define them that way. You have the right to bodily autonomy, freedom of speech, etc., but you don't have the right to someone else's labour. Rights are generally protection against interference from others, not an obligation to receive something.

Broad access to healthcare across socioeconomic status is a worthy policy goal, but saying it's a "fundamental right" begs the question: how much healthcare are you entitled to, exactly?

Re: California Considers Doubling Its Taxes

#295

Post by distrill » Fri, Jan 07, 2022, 11:12 PM UTC

coolspot wrote: post #236

mikestew wrote: post #99

Earlier quoted context omitted.

People and companies are leaving the state in droves. That has been the fantasy of many for at least as long as I've been able to read a newspaper, which is going on 50 years. And it never really seems to happen. Sure, there's a year or two of net migration out of the state, a few companies actually do leave, U-Haul reports that there are no rental trucks in the state of CA, they're all in $ANOTHER_STATE. Then a few…

If there are no rental trucks in CA, doesn’t that mean all trucks are gone from CA to other states?

yes, that happens occasionally and then later more people move back

Re: California Considers Doubling Its Taxes

#296

Post by yongjik » Fri, Jan 07, 2022, 11:13 PM UTC

Kye wrote: post #157

epmatsw wrote: post #77

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Seems like every other first-world country in the world should be sufficient experimentation.

I expect "that won't work in the US" to become "the rest of the country isn't like California" after it's a resounding success.

It's honestly sad. Back in the 60s, "America is different" meant "We can put astronauts on the Moon, never mind no other country has done it, for this is America!"

Nowadays it means "We can't have a single-payer system, never mind all other first-world countries have it, because this is America!"

Re: California Considers Doubling Its Taxes

#297

Post by nomendos » Fri, Jan 07, 2022, 11:17 PM UTC

Dig1t wrote: post #185

nomendos wrote: post #162

I am US Citizen living in CA, while also have lived (and am citizen) of other 3 countries, Canada as one prior to US. To remind all, Michael Moore's Sicko documentary is huge misrepresentation of how good socialized HC is, while it did point huge issues with the current privatized/greed-based private US HC with crooked HC+insurance industry. So as not all is BW, from my experience with Canadian HC, socialization of t…

You are totally right, I've also heard the same thing from the many Canadians I've been friends with over the years as well as my family in the UK. I don't know if most people realize it, but there is definitely a tradeoff between 100% equal access and quality. But it does seem that's a tradeoff that many people want to make so idk

No, most people do now know this. Michael Moore's Sicko movie did good criticism of the current dysfunctional US HC and it is even worse than that. Government is not doing the job to "govern" to fight monopolies, greed and outright corruption and Medical Industrial Complex has Washington swamp in their pocket (together with other monopolies mafias). So, US is increasingly dysfunctional and there will be consequences from that up to possibly fall of the whole "western civilization" (US+Eu+UK) and 1st chaos, then multipolar opportunistic world.

People vote for "short term sales pitch" instead of what is optimal and right for long term and their kids and grandkids. Key factors are missing: - Political manipulation is dominant. - Fact, logic rational based dialogue is vanishing. (i.e. indirectly and directly stimulated by interests, so left does not talk to right and any rational thought is attacked/labeled/censored and anyone who provides criticism of any or both sides in different ways is painted/pushed "polarized" often each side paints such people both ways whatever suits them, so echo chamber effect gets amplified until the system blows up). - People, through generations, are conditioned to be driven by emotions vs face logic/facts/rational. This starts from the early age kids conditioning them into 'ideal consumers' (some call this "idiots" and I understand it but it will be hard to wake them up by reason only, as past tells the only unfortunate way to wake up is catastrophe/calamity/hinger/war)

I can tell a lot of information to anyone that can be add on to Michael's Moore documentary and can paint the complex truth. It is not black and white at all and from my long life experience, best would be to fix the current US HC by breaking monopolies and unfair practices (such as price gauging, etc,...) and this could get US to way better HC than any socialized system can be. But my predictions is that "populism hustling" in the atmosphere of forbidden rational dialogue and political hustlers will go worse direction. I guess it is that 4th degenerative phase of the empire, where "soul&spirit" of the people's mind falls (obvious all around us). I just hope US does not go the way of Balkan.

Re: California Considers Doubling Its Taxes

#298

Post by bradlys » Fri, Jan 07, 2022, 11:22 PM UTC

jjav wrote: post #201

lax4ever wrote: post #11

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Do you actually pay that much a year in insurance premiums? I don't live in CA, but I sure don't and my health coverage is pretty good. Keep in mind, this is also just the insurance premium, there's no talk of what co-pays or deductibles would be. In addition, your employer now has to pay more based on their gross receipts and if you make more than 150k a year you are paying even more.

$2500/month here (silicon valley) for blue shield PPO (company pays a small part of that, I pay directly most of it). So that's 30K/year just in the premiums plus of course a lot out of pocket since insurance fights against paying for so many services.

I assume that’s paying for more than yourself. Also - that’s really high overall…

I mean - plans my work offers (which aren’t even the best) are like $500/month out of pocket for the entire family - and that’s for really good coverage with no deductibles and low copays. The plans they offer aren’t even the best I’ve gotten…

Re: California Considers Doubling Its Taxes

#299

Post by baq » Fri, Jan 07, 2022, 11:28 PM UTC

oa2022 wrote: post #135

dillondoyle wrote: post #130

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In most countries that have public care you can still do this, just like opting for private schools. Britain people buy private insurance for any additional services they want. But I don't think they usually get a tax incentives like private school does can in the US? https://turbotax.intuit.com/tax-tips/college-and-education/t...

If I get private healthcare and private education, and private pensions, I don't want to pay social security, thanks!

Social security is a tax, you pay that for the privilege of living somewhere. It’s called social because humans are social animals.

Re: California Considers Doubling Its Taxes

#300

Post by beej71 » Fri, Jan 07, 2022, 11:38 PM UTC

cal5k wrote: post #125

ren_engineer wrote: post #27

Earlier quoted context omitted.

when has California's government recently shown any capability to successfully implement big projects or spend tax payer money efficiently? How is the high speed train project coming along?

If you want an extreme example of how bad a single payer system can get, look at Canada. Not only do we have a single-payer system, we've actually banned private pay of any kind for "medically necessary" services. The net effect is predictable - Canada consistently ranks very poorly in international health system comparisons. We have far fewer ICU beds, doctors, imaging machines, etc. per capita than peer nations, an…

There is no free market for expensive, emergency care. You're not going to drive to Nevada to get cheaper care while you're having a heart attack.

There's no free market for health insurance for the people who need care. Insurers don't want those people as customers, not from any state. They're money losers.

What pressure is there to lower costs? Why would they charge less?