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Ask HN: Why does Cloudflare/hCaptcha care so much about buses, boats and trains?

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191–200 of 272 posts

Re: Ask HN: Why does Cloudflare/hCaptcha care so much about buses, boats and trains?

#191
post #114

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I wonder if this means self-driving vehicles' detection of important traffic features will be at the level of an irritated and disinterested web user who is trying to just do the minimum work to please an algorithm.

Pretty much a regular driver then!

Heck, better than a regular driver. At least what we're looking at is outside!

Re: Ask HN: Why does Cloudflare/hCaptcha care so much about buses, boats and trains?

#192
post #114

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I wonder if this means self-driving vehicles' detection of important traffic features will be at the level of an irritated and disinterested web user who is trying to just do the minimum work to please an algorithm.

That's about as much attention the average driver pays anyways. I drive a motorcycle, I KNOW that.

I was always tempted to knock on people's driver-side windows when I saw them looking at their phone. Never did - figured they'd probably startle, with a non-zero chance they'd accidentally fling the car into me.

Re: Ask HN: Why does Cloudflare/hCaptcha care so much about buses, boats and trains?

#193
post #76

First, I’m going to teach you to fish. Go to hCaptcha’s website, then scroll to the footer. Click around on the about links. It’ll reveal their business model. This trick also works for other businesses and NGOs. Now, if we look at https://www.hcaptcha.com/labeling we can tell they make money by labeling data sets for a fee. So as a guess, there’s someone out there that needs to improve computer vision detection of t…

This became obvious to me when during some period the regular crosswalks, stop lights, and buses got replaced by chimneys, trees, and mountains (!). It was right around the time when some big companies started advertising AI driven quadcopter services.

Ah, so that's what that's about. Here I was wondering why on earth a self-driving car would need help identifying a mountain (or need to identify one at all). "Surely they can't be that bad at avoiding obstacles," I thought.

Re: Ask HN: Why does Cloudflare/hCaptcha care so much about buses, boats and trains?

#194

At times I get so mad at these things, especially when I have to do 5 of them in a row. Then at some point I just start clicking the wrong images over and over. One captcha should be all it takes.

Curious – have you taken any Voight-Kampff tests lately?

Re: Ask HN: Why does Cloudflare/hCaptcha care so much about buses, boats and trains?

#195

It's somewhat worrying that "prove you are not a computer" consists of the very same tasks we expect computers to excel at if we are to get self-driving vehicles.

There was a time when basic OCR, clicking on pictures of cats among other animals and solving 5 + 7 was the gold standard for captcha. Now those challenges can be trivially solved by computers, and we have moved on to the current set. Very soon these will get outdated as well. This isn't worrying, just how technological progress works.

Re: Ask HN: Why does Cloudflare/hCaptcha care so much about buses, boats and trains?

#196
post #51

Whatever they're doing it's american-centric. Identify "Crosswalks". What the hell is a crosswalk "School bus" - what's the difference between a bus currently serving a school and another one? "Show taxis", there are no black vehicles listed at all

It's pretty obvious from the pictures. I get that it's US centric, but if you can't figure those basics out, you probably shouldn't be passing the captcha.

Re: Ask HN: Why does Cloudflare/hCaptcha care so much about buses, boats and trains?

#197
post #178

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There's also a mode where it thinks you are a bot/sucker and gives you unlimited images until you give up. That's always fun.

If anyone wants to see that, try launching the browser via Selenium. I used to do that to partially automate some activities, such as download bank statements. I'd have my Selenium using script open a browser and go to the bank, then wait for me to login and get to the account page. I'd login, dismiss any popup or interstitial promotions the bank decided to give me, get to the account page, and tell my script to cont…

fanfiction.net has also simply broken the Calibre FanFicFare integration thanks to their CloudFlare shenanigans.

The workaround is to simply visit all chapters separately and then point Calibre at the Google Chrome cache folder.

So nice going there, fanfiction.net. Instead of offering a 1-click .epub download like AO3 (which is completely CDN-able with a very long TTL), you now had to serve 50 individual requests. Great engineering work there.

(Obviously they do this to serve ads on every request)

Re: Ask HN: Why does Cloudflare/hCaptcha care so much about buses, boats and trains?

#198
post #80

Other commenters have talked about labelling. Maybe labelling of real life data is something they're trying to do; but from my experience with hCaptcha the challenges are _NOT_ real life data. They're AI-generated images which bear a passing resemblance to the targets but if you look closer nothing adds up at all. Here are a couple of examples: https://bearbin.net/images/captcha/1.png https://bearbin.net/images/captc…

The broken images to me look like instances where two or more cameras or images were used and then stitched together. Probably also done while the camera and object are moving making it more likely to be wonky.

No way. The letters/writing look exactly like mirrored GAN output. That's not what would happen with blur or stitching together (there would be no mirroring symmetry or all the '8' letters), or with synthetic 'machine teaching' datapoints either (as far as I've ever seen). Look at the cat StyleGAN sometime if you don't know what I'm talking about.

Which leaves me wonder what the point is. If you are generating GAN images per CIFAR or ImageNet class, you know what the label is and don't need to label it. Perhaps they just generate lots of images to fill up the pipeline for the CAPTCHAs, to avoid reuse which could be exploited by spammers, when they have too little paying work?

Re: Ask HN: Why does Cloudflare/hCaptcha care so much about buses, boats and trains?

#199

Earlier quoted context omitted.

lol I'm imagining a captcha that says "please hurry" to disambiguate a situation in realtime

https://xkcd.com/1897/

“Twitch plays drive an autonomous vehicle”

Re: Ask HN: Why does Cloudflare/hCaptcha care so much about buses, boats and trains?

#200
post #166

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They probably have some statistics in the background which tells them some form of Trustlevel. You also need to assume that there are potentially control pictures in it as well. I think this is a very liable approach.

Yeah, it's not like they will label something a train just because a single person says so. But if you have 10k responses with 95% confidence saying it's a train, it's very likely to be the case.

But GP is describing exactly the opposite: there might be a train that's not immediately visible at a glance, leading most people to not label it.
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