Pentagon and CIA shaped thousands of Hollywood movies into effective propaganda • Hacker News Board

Re: Pentagon and CIA shaped thousands of Hollywood movies into effective propaganda

#451

Post by hirako2000 » Fri, Jan 07, 2022, 3:40 PM UTC

foldr wrote: post #402

hirako2000 wrote: post #381

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think what is extremely destructive is siding with "legitimate" military grade weapon sales. But it doesn't invalidate your point. As a gay it means something when a CEO speaks up publicly in favor of gay inclusion. If it assures you, it also means something to many people who aren't gay. The issue the parent is pointing out is that these are easy wins used to diverting attention from their huge losses. And, some w…

Weapons sales are besides the point. There are plenty of corporations doing totally non-shady things that make exactly the same kinds of tweet. I don't think it's helpful to drag this thread into a discussion about the ethics of selling weapons. I suspect that we don't even disagree on that point. (Please don't think that I hold any brief for Raytheon.) I find the rest of your post a little bit confusing. I don't thi…

You understood my point, you seem to disagree and that's fine.

I do agree that people back then appear to care less about arm dealings. I beleive they care more today then back then. And that people also care about a lot of other unethical practices certain large corporations get involve with. I think people always cared, but information didn't flow as fast, broadly, and independently as today, and even that is being fought against (again by large corporations). If you don't think diversion coupled with virtue signaling is a thing and that it is elaborated precisely for their desired effect, fine. I shared my perspective and the one many people beleive is undoubtful at this point.

Weapon dealing / wars are beside the point perhaps but directly relate to the whole thread: Hollywood propaganda.

Re: Pentagon and CIA shaped thousands of Hollywood movies into effective propaganda

#452

Post by aaaaaaaaaaab » Fri, Jan 07, 2022, 3:42 PM UTC

shkkmo wrote: post #373

atq2119 wrote: post #199

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Eh, I'd say the Holocaust makes a good argument in favour of it genuinely being a good vs evil thing. I mean, that certainly wasn't the only (or even main) motivation, but come on. The actual myth is that the West is/was systematically engaged on the good side in good vs evil conflicts, when in reality WWII was more of an exception in that regard.

The origins of WWII have a lot to do with they way what WWI ended. Germany was blockaded and the german people were starved until they were forced to sign a very one-sided treaty. The holocaust, which is undeniably evil, is used to to hide all the other evils that lead up to WWII or were committed during it. This capped by the completely unnecessary nuclear bombing of Nagasaki by the US. WWII was not actually an exce…

Don’t forget the forced relocation of Germans after WWII, where the death toll is still debated, but could be as high as 2 million. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flight_and_expulsion_of_Germ...

Also, the systematic destruction of civilian targets by allied bombing campaigns: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Area_bombing_directive

Another example is the systematic starvation of German populace in the post-war years, due to the allord policy of deindustrialization. The average daily food intake was estimated at 1000kcal! And it was not a matter of food scarcity - it was a deliberate allied policy:

>Germany received many offers from Western European nations to trade food for desperately needed coal and steel. Neither the Italians nor the Dutch could sell the vegetables that they had previously sold in Germany, with the consequence that the Dutch had to destroy considerable proportions of their crop. Denmark offered 150 tons of lard a month; Turkey offered hazelnuts; Norway offered fish and fish oil; Sweden offered considerable amounts of fats. However, the Allies disallowed the Germans to trade.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Allied_plans_for_German_indu...

Re: Pentagon and CIA shaped thousands of Hollywood movies into effective propaganda

#453

Post by throwawaylinux » Fri, Jan 07, 2022, 3:42 PM UTC

Tostino wrote: post #366

throwawaylinux wrote: post #321

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why are you calling me these names? Who am I calling up hate or rage against? I answered a question about the definition of the word as it was being used. Obviously the definition is making you very angry, but I'm just the messenger here I did not make the post that used the word in the first place, and I didn't make up the definition.

The only "name" I saw them call you was "bud". I gotta say I agree with their assessment though.

You didn't read the thread where they used other names. Thanks that that gives me a good understanding of the usefulness of your opinion, so I don't need to bother asking how you came to it.

Re: Pentagon and CIA shaped thousands of Hollywood movies into effective propaganda

#454

Post by rocknor » Fri, Jan 07, 2022, 3:43 PM UTC

crate_barre wrote: post #2

The other country that is doing this at Hollywood scale is China, and it’s not just their ‘only popular in China’ movies like Wolf Warrior (1 and 2). Some scenes: https://youtu.be/g7y36UIRAjo IP Man 4, which is more well known to western audiences: https://youtu.be/OlW2VphUNd4 https://youtu.be/JFmaPK0JyVQ You get the idea. Americans make movies where America good, everyone bad. China is now making movies where China…

I mean, if one country does it, everyone else is forced to do it to level the playing field. Hollywood churns out higher quality propaganda because huge budgets and USA global hegemony, but it won't stay like that forever as we move to a multipolar world. The same is happening with online news outlets that churn out cherry-picked propaganda to counter propaganda from another country - information warfare.

Re: Pentagon and CIA shaped thousands of Hollywood movies into effective propaganda

#455

Post by tomp » Fri, Jan 07, 2022, 3:46 PM UTC

TaylorAlexander wrote: post #219

throwawaylinux wrote: post #81

Earlier quoted context omitted.

For all the feigning of ignorance, 'woke' is well entrenched in in mainstream language now. It would definitely have made it to one of those "word of the year" things within the past few years if it wasn't for wokeism. Urban dictionary can help you out if you really don't know https://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=woke Pretending to be bravely battling fascism and tyranny on behalf of the oppressed while ce…

I asked because whenever I hear about someone complaining of “wokeism” they’re complaining about things that I think are good. Giving black actors roles in areas normally dominated by white actors? That’s awesome! But whenever this happens loads of people online will claim that is “wokeism”. Representation for gay, lesbian, queer, and trans people in media? Wow that’s great! Many complain this is “wokeism”. Recognizi…

No post body was provided.

Re: Pentagon and CIA shaped thousands of Hollywood movies into effective propaganda

#456

Post by TheOtherHobbes » Fri, Jan 07, 2022, 3:49 PM UTC

fnklay wrote: post #297

notahacker wrote: post #272

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I'll try an easier and more concrete one to help you out. Do you think Hollywood is at all hypocritical or insincere about their collective rhetoric about gun violence while also producing movies that glorify guns and people solving their problems with violence? The OP's argument was that modern movies are political propaganda supporting "wokeism", so a concrete example where Hollywood movies are often - intentiona…

Quoted post unavailable.

"White woman doing Othello" has been attempted fairly regularly in recent years, and people do indeed object to it - for two reasons.

One is that it's allegedly racist in itself ("It's a black role for a black actor") and the other that it's superficial tokenist wokeism and against the natural order of things. ("It's a black role for a black actor.")

In related news There was controversy in the UK this week about a famous Jewish actor complaining that former Israeli premier Golda Meir might be played in a new movie by a non-Jewish woman.

I find this all quite strange. The whole point of art is imagination. Expecting actors who are playing to a stereotype to actually be that stereotype makes as much as demanding that only real retired spies can play James Bond, and only real time travellers can play Doctor Who.

But perhaps that's not a popular view. These roles are tribal totems and morality markers, and casting against that reveals how they operate.

The real problem is the nature of status and hierarchy. Conservatives get very uncomfortable when status and hierarchy are challenged, and many liberals assume they're challenging status and hierarchy when really they're just challenging a certain ordering, and not the abstract principle.

Personally I find too much US media output has a lot in common with plain old everyone-is-a-warrior fascism. I'm really bored by big dumb movies and TV shows which are all about spurting blood and super-athletic ultra-violence in the pursuit of some dystopian Randian mix of self-defence and self-interest.

I don't care if the actors are male, female, white, non-white, gay, trans, or cyborgs. I do care about what they're doing, and most of it isn't that interesting.

Re: Pentagon and CIA shaped thousands of Hollywood movies into effective propaganda

#457

Post by shkkmo » Fri, Jan 07, 2022, 3:57 PM UTC

tauntz wrote: post #437

shkkmo wrote: post #355

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Be careful about trusting Urban Dictionary too much. It can serve has a useful hint about what some slang means, but is often heavily biased towards the slang used by certain demographics and subcultures (and is vulnerable to brigading). It certainly is not a source of the "one true meaning" of a word. I am sure your language does have a word that is pretty similar to "pretentious" though it may not have all of the c…

Thanks for a thorough explanation and background! I used Urban Dictionary for "pretentious" due to the OP explicitly referring to it to understand the meaning of woke. But this got me intrigued now :) I still can't think of a phrase or word in Estonian that would convey the same (or even similar) meaning. I searched through a couple of dictionaries now and the translations provided there are really not useful. They m…

"Braggy" and "pedantic" do share some meaning/conotation overlap with "pretentious" but I don't think "complains a lot" or "has unreasonably high standards" really overlap (though terms for those may in Estonianl.

Another English word that is very similar in meaning is "ostentatious".

If I had to write out my own definition of "pretentious" it would be: Pretending to be higher class, more refined, more educated or more moral than you actually are and implying that makes you superior to other people.

Re: Pentagon and CIA shaped thousands of Hollywood movies into effective propaganda

#458

Post by agumonkey » Fri, Jan 07, 2022, 4:01 PM UTC

ido wrote: post #390

agumonkey wrote: post #167

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Maybe to a lesser extent but you can find Indian movies of absurd heroism too. That's what propped me to think America is not very special. Also being a young and rich state probably pushed things to eleven.

I wouldn't say "being young" is that relevant after a couple centuries. Nobody in the US today knows someone who witnessed the declaration of independence (unlike, say, in Israel or India).

Probably. But I believe there's still a notion that they're new players who got everything right to the top. While other countries have seen peaks and valleys.

Re: Pentagon and CIA shaped thousands of Hollywood movies into effective propaganda

#459

Post by quacked » Fri, Jan 07, 2022, 4:04 PM UTC

tomp wrote: post #448

Levitz wrote: post #360

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Hard to answer, you might as well ask "what exactly does this not very defined group want?". Let's take feminism for example, which is generally considered as pertaining to woke culture, what do feminists want? Well you have sex-positive feminists, sex-negative feminists, you've got the ones that want to legalize sex work, the ones who don't, abortion at every stage no matter the circumstance, abortion in hospitals d…

Typical moat-and-bailey pro-woke argument. Can you list any media (mainstream news, or Hollywood) that are promoting sex-negative or trans exclusive views? There is no discussion or dissenting views allowed for most “woke” people.

Fox News in the US. I agree mostly with your point that the film industry and the majority of print and cable news falls in line with progressive/leftist/"woke" talking points, but Fox is an absolutely massive propaganda vehicle with dozens of millions of daily viewers. They regularly promote trans-exclusive views.

Re: Pentagon and CIA shaped thousands of Hollywood movies into effective propaganda

#460

Post by jjk166 » Fri, Jan 07, 2022, 4:04 PM UTC

Dudeman112 wrote: post #431

jjk166 wrote: post #415

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is an example of the logical fallacy petitio principii (begging the question).

Alternatively, it could be taken as a honest question: do they actually want it because of the propaganda, or would they want it regardless of the propaganda? Inferring tone from text is a bitch.

It's begging the question in either interpretation, hence why you can't really answer the question.