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The lost art of recovery for healing

theguardian.com

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Re: The lost art of recovery for healing

#31

Post by xkbarkar »

This was a very refreshing read and interesting how hostile many commenters get at the mere suggestion that a pull, an injection or even surgery may not always be the right answer.

Maybe it is because she seems to hint that many patients have too much faith in the MD.

Considering how curated we have been for the past 30 years ( I just picked a number there that firs my personal narrative ) to dogmatize science this of course can feel like a personal attack.

I am extremely happy to seee younger doctors embrace personal responsibility, environment and other factors than just chemical compounds when it comes to health.

We are complex beings and we know for a fact we are overweight, overmedicated and depressed.

At least in europe.

North europeans especially in the Nordics suffer from lonliness.

There are a myriad of side effects attributed to lonliness, elevated bloodpressure and increased risk of heart attack is one. I am not sourcing this, there are so many high quality studies on this. A small search will get you dozens of good results.

Anyway, my point was.

If your bloodpressure is elevated because you are depressed and lonely. The classic “yeah science” person gets the blood pressure medication from the MD. He will never be cured by that medication.

He will possibly suffer side effects.

Had he been lucky enough tontalk to this woman, she might have identified his bp in a holistic way and suggested social settings.

In this instance his high bp would have been cured.

Holistically if he is obese. A smoker or high stress job. We all know the answer to curing the bp in that case.

None involve tablets or injections.

But then there are of course cases where the bp is for example caused by other life saving medication.

Cancer medication can can cause extremely high blood sugar levels.

You dont tell the cancer patient to just change their diet and start taking the stairs.

Holistic means just that I think.

It is way overdue we start taking a little responsability of our own bodies and use our best judgement when to seek an MD.

The cure is not always in the pill.

Re: The lost art of recovery for healing

#32

Post by _djo_ »

puszczyk wrote: post #20
Cthulhu_ wrote: post #7

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The thing is that in the US and increasingly in the UK, if you're sick it's considered your own fault, responsibility, and expense. Employers do not care about you, if you do not work they do not want you. From a purely utilitarian / capitalist viewpoint it makes sense, why pay for a service (an employee) if they do not provide? But there's a difference between an employee and a contractor. And it's not a human way t…

> In my own country, thankfully, we get paid time off if we're sick. If we're sick long-term (I don't know what the cutoff is), the employer has to pay us 70% of wages for a year, after which the government takes over 1y sounds like a long time, esp for smaller companies (like if you have say 5 ppl on a payroll). I wonder if they can insure against such a risk (say if an insurer can cover the salary if absence longer…

> 1y sounds like a long time, esp for smaller companies (like if you have say 5 ppl on a payroll). I wonder if they can insure against such a risk (say if an insurer can cover the salary if absence longer than a month).

Yes, there are insurance packages available for this. In the Netherlands, for instance, where the support period is two years, it's common for businesses to take out verzuimverzekering or 'absence insurance'. It usually only applies to line employees though, not those are director level or above.

Re: The lost art of recovery for healing

#33

Post by _djo_ »

kkjjkgjjgg wrote: post #26
Cthulhu_ wrote: post #7

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The thing is that in the US and increasingly in the UK, if you're sick it's considered your own fault, responsibility, and expense. Employers do not care about you, if you do not work they do not want you. From a purely utilitarian / capitalist viewpoint it makes sense, why pay for a service (an employee) if they do not provide? But there's a difference between an employee and a contractor. And it's not a human way t…

"It really blows for the employer, but in a lot of cases, it's the job that makes you long-term sick in the first place" So because some employers are bad apples, everybody has to pay up? For many employers, that would be the end of it. Employers are also just people in most cases. As an example, I suddenly became employer when my kids joined a privately run kindergarden. The parents all together were the employer, a…

Like almost any business risk, the need to support long-term sick leave or similar absences by employees is something you can take out insurance for.

As long as you're not operating in a way that forces a ton of people into getting sick like that, your premiums remain quite low.

Re: The lost art of recovery for healing

#34

Post by kkjjkgjjgg »

_djo_ wrote: post #33
kkjjkgjjgg wrote: post #26

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"It really blows for the employer, but in a lot of cases, it's the job that makes you long-term sick in the first place" So because some employers are bad apples, everybody has to pay up? For many employers, that would be the end of it. Employers are also just people in most cases. As an example, I suddenly became employer when my kids joined a privately run kindergarden. The parents all together were the employer, a…

Like almost any business risk, the need to support long-term sick leave or similar absences by employees is something you can take out insurance for. As long as you're not operating in a way that forces a ton of people into getting sick like that, your premiums remain quite low.

Insurance for paying one year of salaries? I can't imagine that comes cheap.

Re: The lost art of recovery for healing

#35

Post by _djo_ »

kkjjkgjjgg wrote: post #34
_djo_ wrote: post #33

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Like almost any business risk, the need to support long-term sick leave or similar absences by employees is something you can take out insurance for. As long as you're not operating in a way that forces a ton of people into getting sick like that, your premiums remain quite low.

Insurance for paying one year of salaries? I can't imagine that comes cheap.

In practice it's not a common occurrence, and companies have options in place like company doctors to manage things like burnout and avoid those scenarios from happening in the first place.

It's not a blocker for startups.

Re: The lost art of recovery for healing

#36

Post by kkjjkgjjgg »

_djo_ wrote: post #35
kkjjkgjjgg wrote: post #34

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Insurance for paying one year of salaries? I can't imagine that comes cheap.

In practice it's not a common occurrence, and companies have options in place like company doctors to manage things like burnout and avoid those scenarios from happening in the first place. It's not a blocker for startups.

I literally gave an example of a business that would have a problem.

The point is that such discussions often operate with imaginary businesses with infinite resources.

Also if a job makes you sick, you should switch.

Re: The lost art of recovery for healing

#37

Post by _djo_ »

kkjjkgjjgg wrote: post #36
_djo_ wrote: post #35

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In practice it's not a common occurrence, and companies have options in place like company doctors to manage things like burnout and avoid those scenarios from happening in the first place. It's not a blocker for startups.

I literally gave an example of a business that would have a problem. The point is that such discussions often operate with imaginary businesses with infinite resources. Also if a job makes you sick, you should switch.

No, you provided an unusual, very specific example, and strongly implied that you would fire any of the nannies you employ if they became pregnant. That says a lot about your mindset.

Fact is, there are certain fundamental costs and risks you quite rightly have to bear when employing others. In most countries that includes a reasonable amount of maternity leave, sick leave, paid vacation, and so on. If your business can't sustain those costs then it's not healthy enough to be employing people.

Long term paid illness at 70% of a person's salary is something fewer countries have but there, again, there's reasonably-priced insurance that you can take out that's specifically targeted at and priced for small businesses. Large businesses don't need it.

Nobody is assuming that businesses have infinite resources, and this is no different to any other regulation that affects the cost of doing business. We accept them because the overall societal benefits are worth it even if it means some small percentage of small companies makes less profit or may not exist in the first place.

> Also if a job makes you sick, you should switch.

That's a terrible argument. Not only is switching not always an option, especially for low-wage jobs, but if we allow widespread abuse of employees then there usually aren't better options to switch to.

Re: The lost art of recovery for healing

#38

Post by kkjjkgjjgg »

_djo_ wrote: post #37
kkjjkgjjgg wrote: post #36

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I literally gave an example of a business that would have a problem. The point is that such discussions often operate with imaginary businesses with infinite resources. Also if a job makes you sick, you should switch.

No, you provided an unusual, very specific example, and strongly implied that you would fire any of the nannies you employ if they became pregnant. That says a lot about your mindset. Fact is, there are certain fundamental costs and risks you quite rightly have to bear when employing others. In most countries that includes a reasonable amount of maternity leave, sick leave, paid vacation, and so on. If your business…

"No, you provided an unusual, very specific example, and strongly implied that you would fire any of the nannies you employ if they became pregnant. That says a lot about your mindset."

I never said anything about firing pregnant employees, it says a lot about YOUR mindset that you think I did. And it is not a unusal example, there are a lot of kindergardens in the world.

In my country (public) health insurance takes over paying sick people (or pregnant) people after a certain amount of time.

You keep claiming there is cheap insurance, which I rather doubt. In any case, it shouldn't have to be the responsibility of the employer. All that does is make employers reluctant to hire sickly people or people who are at risk of becoming pregnant.

"That's a terrible argument. Not only is switching not always an option, especially for low-wage jobs, but if we allow widespread abuse of employees then there usually aren't better options to switch to."

That is the usual leftist claim, which is just bullshit. Employers have to compete for workers, too, also they don't have absolute power giving out goodies to slave like employees, as leftists claim. People can take responsibility for themselves.

There are many, many leftists - are you saying they all would treat their employees badly, if they were to start companies? Or are leftists somehow incapable of starting companies?

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