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Ask HN: My boss doesn't think I'm doing good work, how to proceed?

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Re: Ask HN: My boss doesn't think I'm doing good work, how to proceed?

#261

> Part of the reason it had taken so long is because I put a substantial amount of work into a part of the project that's no longer necessary due to changing requirements, which I don't think I could have forseen. One of the things that I've experienced with new grad junior devs is that there's an adjustment needed to change from academic working to business working. In academia, usually the professor gives an assign…

I have this junior engineer DM'ing me right now and I've been ignoring it because I don't want to deal with him and I have my own work to do. I'm reading through your comment here thinking "hey, I'm pretty good at walking that line, bothering the professor when appropriate, not waiting too long and not asking him for help too soon"... and then it occurred to me this guy is probably bothering the professor where I'm t…

If your a senior dev it’s part of your role to help the junior ones out. You should cultivate that behaviour as it brings up the quality of your colleagues and builds work relationships.

Re: Ask HN: My boss doesn't think I'm doing good work, how to proceed?

#262
post #229
post #35

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I agree with this sentiment. And in fact, I’ll take it further: I’m not sure any “you should have” phrase is ever beneficial UNLESS it’s in the context of giving guidance about the future. And even then, it’s better to phrase it as “next time, I would suggest…” This has been a pet peeve of mine for a long time. “You should have” phrases are often used to berate or make the recipient feel bad while acting as a vent fo…

It can be used in the context of explaining what changes that need to be made to someone's work for it to be acceptable. "You should have used established crypto library calls here instead of rolling your own SHA-256 implementation with probable bugs. Please fix it" I also think it works well, better than "next time I would", for giving someone permission to do things. "You should have called me when the client asked…

Your first example is great -- in a correctible situation (as with code, or writing, or design), it works and is helpful. You should have used, should have written, should have drawn, etc.

But I respectfully disagree with your second example:

"You should have called me when the client asked for XYZ" is _exactly_ the kind of phrase I find unhelpful. All that does it lay blame - it says you did something wrong and in a perfect world you would have done something right. Your counterexample is the kind of feedback I'd MUCH rather hear.

"Ok, you didn't call me when the client asked for XYZ. That is fine. If it happens again, call me." It addresses the situation that happened, emphasizes that you are indeed forgiving, and gives guidance about how to handle it in the future.

Re: Ask HN: My boss doesn't think I'm doing good work, how to proceed?

#263
That really sucks. I think if you don't quit now then you will at some point in the future. Poor communication from above is not something that can work long term. Not only that, it's going to be hard to get out of the demotivation funk that this has created.

Anyway, don't let it get to you. I'd actually be a bit angry if this happened to me. Someone who is just out of college in their first job needs a leader to guide them and some basic mentorship - not this kind of shit.

Re: Ask HN: My boss doesn't think I'm doing good work, how to proceed?

#265

Tell your manager that you are scared by what happened in the meeting with the skip manager and ask if they want you working for them or if you should start looking for another job. Most likely you should leave in this situation, because if your skip manager thinks you suck, you don’t have much of a future at the company. They will likely need to approve promotions, raises, etc. However, you don’t have much to lose b…

Absolutely don't signal to anyone higher than you that you might start looking for another job. That's the worst thing you could possibly do and will leave you branded as a lost cause.

What manager is going to stick his neck out or put effort into a subordinate that doesn't even know if they want to be there.

It could also leave you in a compromised position under many circumstances if they wanted to get rid of you / move you etc.

Re: Ask HN: My boss doesn't think I'm doing good work, how to proceed?

#267
post #35
post #7

This boss telling you that they felt the project should have been done a long time ago: I wonder who that comment benefits? Feels like no one. You get bummed, they give late feedback without a lot of constructive aspects to it. I am trying to think of one way it was useful to tell you that, but I can’t. Seems like you should feel justified in not being a fan of working under this person. What you do with that is hard…

I agree with this sentiment. And in fact, I’ll take it further: I’m not sure any “you should have” phrase is ever beneficial UNLESS it’s in the context of giving guidance about the future. And even then, it’s better to phrase it as “next time, I would suggest…” This has been a pet peeve of mine for a long time. “You should have” phrases are often used to berate or make the recipient feel bad while acting as a vent fo…

This reminds me of a case of a director asking a "tough question" of a dev team as a way of providing feedback. I don't think the feedback was taken the right way in this case.

I was in a meeting where a group of devs were presenting a technical solution to our director, who was overseeing the product as a whole. At one point the director asks, "Did you look into other companies doing this and potentially licensing their solution to the problem instead?" All the devs were confused because they were tasked with building a technical solution in-house. I was confused as well because it seemed like a question the director should've asked a PM or one of the dev leads, not the grunts who were tasked with writing the code. The devs presenting were flustered by the question and didn't know how to proceed. The director continued with the line of questioning and it was clear he didn't like what he saw in the presentation.

The experience left a bad taste in my mouth.

Anyway, a couple weeks later, my manager mentioned the incident and told me he asked the director about it. The director admitted that he had only asked the question to get the team thinking differently about how they were solving the problem and cut through some of the technical details they were providing him. My manager thought it was a clever tactic, but I thought it was manipulative. I also think he just lost his cool since the solutions weren't to his liking and wanted to take it out on the team a little bit. I didn't think it was a great way of building trust with the team, nor do I think it made them think differently about the problem.

Re: Ask HN: My boss doesn't think I'm doing good work, how to proceed?

#268
This feedback does not sound particularly constructive.

If they wanted something done faster or better: Well isn't that special? Look at the special boy who wants work to magically go faster with 0 additional work coming from higher ups or senior engineers. That's really nice, but that isn't how things work in the real world. Stuff takes as long as it takes.

If you aren't having regular, as in daily, meetings with your team to make sure you are working on the right things: That is literally your manager's only job. Do not let them brush you off.

Meetings are for YOU to make sure YOU are doing the correct work. It isn't you turning in your homework, it isn't an accountability check-in where you get a letter grade and a lecture. It is the time you communicate about progress and goals. They are YOUR meetings, to help YOU, NOT theirs!

Helping you with these meetings and other forms of communications IS YOUR MANAGERS JOB.

And if your team isn't considering changing requirements when planning work, then that isn't on you either. Requirements changes should go through your project manager and it should affect project scope.

However, at a certain point, you have to manage UP to get what you need from your team. Set a cadence of accountability with your manager and team. If they don't make that reasonable accommodation, at least you can say you tried.

===

As an aside:

Here is a fact you probably have not had to deal with too much yet: Some people are cruel assholes, and they don't even know why. They just say and do cruel things because that is who they are. Don't deal with assholes.

The other thing about assholes: They manipulate you. They make YOU feel bad for THEM. They make YOU feel like YOU are doing a bad job instead of taking on the responsibility themselves.

If I had a Jr engineer who was struggling, I would tell them and I would help them. If I had a Jr engineer who I forgot to manage and then they failed to meet expectations... well, i wouldn't behave like your boss. But shifting that blame downwards is a tactic you could use.

We have too much mobility in this industry to deal with assholes. If you are writing and shipping computer vision projects, cash the checks, keep your head down, get the experience you need, and once you are done with this place: Leave without looking back. You don't owe them anything.

Re: Ask HN: My boss doesn't think I'm doing good work, how to proceed?

#269
It's your first job out of college. To be honest you aren't a good developer yet. That might sound harsh but it's actually totally okay. I don't care how great your grades in college were, new grads don't understand how to build maintainable enterprise projects. They don't have ample experience to draw on when it comes to how best to solve a problem, because most of it time it's the first they've seen of that problem. Thrashing and failing is just part of the career. Having a nice long think over a post mortem is how you learn and grow. What really matters is whether you have a good attitude, if you can reflect and build on your mistakes, if you're pleasant to work with, and if you can gracefully give and receive feedback. You're not a great dev yet... and that's fine, because you're working on it.

The problem seems to be with your boss's expectations. So if I understand this right they gave a junior developer soul dominion over a CV project with evolving requirements and a tight deadline? That your manager isn't really reviewing your code and offering feedback on a daily basis? That you don't have a dedicated mentor? Of course you're thrashing. To give you a project and expect otherwise is stupid.

Look, I'm a firm believer in giving good people the support and tools they need to succeed, because I've never really seen it fail. People who want to do good will. I've mentored lots of junior devs and they all have their own strengths and weaknesses. The one weakness I can't abide is if they're too full of themselves to accept feedback or hard to work with. If that's not you then you'll keep getting better. Look, you might think you like that job and maybe today was an exception, but you don't really have a basis of comparison and what you described sounds kinda wack. I can tell you with 100% certainty if your colleagues don't have realistic expectations you're going to have a bad time. The blame fest is coming. There are a ton of chill teams out there that would appreciate your time. Might not be as flashy as CV, but at the end of the day building Rube Goldberg machine business software is pretty dang similar. What matters is if you enjoy coming to work.

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