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Chatbots: Still dumb after all these years

mindmatters.ai

201–210 of 426 posts

Re: Chatbots: Still dumb after all these years

#201
Why can't the Neats and the Scruffies just work together and get along? ;)

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neats_and_scruffies

>Neats and scruffies

>Neat and scruffy are two contrasting approaches to artificial intelligence (AI) research. The distinction was made in the 70s and was a subject of discussion until the middle 80s. In the 1990s and 21st century AI research adopted "neat" approaches almost exclusively and these have proven to be the most successful.

>"Neats" use algorithms based on formal paradigms such as logic, mathematical optimization or neural networks. Neat researchers and analysts have expressed the hope that a single formal paradigm can be extended and improved to achieve general intelligence and superintelligence.

>"Scruffies" use any number of different algorithms and methods to achieve intelligent behavior. Scruffy programs may require large amounts of hand coding or knowledge engineering. Scruffies have argued that the general intelligence can only be implemented by solving a large number of essentially unrelated problems, and that there is no magic bullet that will allow programs to develop general intelligence autonomously.

>The neat approach is similar to physics, in that it uses simple mathematical models as its foundation. The scruffy approach is more like biology, where much of the work involves studying and categorizing diverse phenomena.

>Origin in the 1970s

>The distinction between neat and scruffy originated in the mid-1970s, by Roger Schank. Schank used the terms to characterize the difference between his work on natural language processing (which represented commonsense knowledge in the form of large amorphous semantic networks) from the work of John McCarthy, Allen Newell, Herbert A. Simon, Robert Kowalski and others whose work was based on logic and formal extensions of logic. Schank described himself as an AI scruffy. He made this distinction in linguistics, arguing strongly against Chomsky's view of language.

>The distinction was also partly geographical and cultural: "scruffy" attributes were exemplified by AI research at MIT under Marvin Minsky in the 1970s. The laboratory was famously "freewheeling" and researchers often developed AI programs by spending long hours fine-tuning programs until they showed the required behavior. Important and influential "scruffy" programs developed at MIT included Joseph Weizenbaum's ELIZA, which behaved as if it spoke English, without any formal knowledge at all, and Terry Winograd's SHRDLU, which could successfully answer queries and carry out actions in a simplified world consisting of blocks and a robot arm. SHRDLU, while successful, could not be scaled up into a useful natural language processing system, because it lacked a structured design. Maintaining a larger version of the program proved to be impossible, i.e. it was too scruffy to be extended.

>Other AI laboratories (of which the largest were Stanford, Carnegie Mellon University and the University of Edinburgh) focused on logic and formal problem solving as a basis for AI. These institutions supported the work of John McCarthy, Herbert Simon, Allen Newell, Donald Michie, Robert Kowalski, and other "neats".

>The contrast between MIT's approach and other laboratories was also described as a "procedural/declarative distinction". Programs like SHRDLU were designed as agents that carried out actions. They executed "procedures". Other programs were designed as inference engines that manipulated formal statements (or "declarations") about the world and translated these manipulations into actions.

>In his 1983 presidential address to Association for the Advancement of Artificial Intelligence, Nils Nilsson discussed the issue, arguing that "the field needed both". He wrote "much of the knowledge we want our programs to have can and should be represented declaratively in some kind of declarative, logic-like formalism. Ad hoc structures have their place, but most of these come from the domain itself." Alex P. Pentland and Martin Fischler of SRI International concurred about the anticipated role of deduction and logic-like formalisms in future AI research, but not to the extent that Nilsson described.

[...]

Re: Chatbots: Still dumb after all these years

#203

In the early days I worked at a company that had a natural language chatbot product. It wasn't an online thing, but rather part of a larger tool. You could ask it to do things like "show me the quarterly spreadsheet", and if it didn't know what "quarterly spreadsheet" was, it'd ask questions in English and learn what "quarterly" and "spreadsheet" meant. And it could use that new knowledge to update its questions so i…

> I often feel like we're not in a better state these days.

Reminds me of the issues with Tay: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tay_(bot)#Initial_release

Re: Chatbots: Still dumb after all these years

#204

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm not trying to be mean or break any HN rules, but did you read the article? It basically covers what you asked and was quite a revelation to me. Others in here point out that GPT-3 is not a chatbot which is good info, but I also wonder if there is anything out there that can even "remember" the context of a conversation it's supposed to be having. Particularly interesting is the question from the article, "who is…

>who is the current president? I wonder what happened to IBM Watson's technology that was good at answering trivia -- it actually won a game of Jeopardy! a decade ago (although of course it answered things with a question as per the rules). I know that they weren't that successful at applying it to biomedical research as they had hoped, but it would seem it would be better at chatbots than GPT-3 and other deep-learni…

I suppose it didn't work with less than 15 terabytes of RAM

Re: Chatbots: Still dumb after all these years

#205

Having worked on conversational AI (virtual agents/chatbots) for over a half a decade now, I can say that there are large differences in the capabilities of the solutions and the quality of implementations. Some are just bad and unhelpful. Some are very good. I'm personally familiar with several voice deployments doing millions of calls a month. Not only are there obvious cost savings but the calls handled (entirely)…

> the calls handled (entirely) by the virtual agents get better average cust sat metrics than human agents on the same set of calls

does that take into account that the virtual agents are immediately available and human agents usually require a waiting room?

Re: Chatbots: Still dumb after all these years

#206
post #48

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's a good thing. The market is very good at empirically validating research. It helps filter out the chaff and ensure research is useful. Better than academia wasting years on concepts like the "semantic web" where nobody can even agree on what it means. Academia is under attack from many political directions right now, being able to show useful output will help it thrive in the long run.

Capital is far too short-sighted to look beyond this year or this quarter. Many of the important groundbreaking ideas or projects take years, even decades to formulate. As I've said elsewhere, capital will just take the easiest road it is allowed to take, which currently is stifling innovation, buying competitors, maintaining monopolies, relying on economies of scale to shut out competitors when they can't be acquire…

I cant think of the last time I saw the word "corporations" used in a post that wasn't part of an attack on them as inferior/evil/villanous etc. Speaking of NLP, your post would be very easy to classify sentiment of using a simple keyword approach.

Anyway, I've worked both in academia and industry. Industry is simply more practical and better at technology. In tech areas, academia desperately needs industry to provide the feedback they provide. Especially in AI areas. You are thinking of CEO's or salespeople or something, but the people that matter here are the engineers. And I'd place their assessment over that of grad students any day. If the engineers can't make it work, then yes there's a problem here. Doesn't always mean it can't work, but for most ideas it probably does.

By the way industry research labs certainly still exist. But long-term self-funded research has to compete with govt funding of research. Why throw your investor money at a high-risk idea when Stanford, MIT, and 100 other R1's are throwing taxpayer money at it? Otherwise industry labs end up just competing for govt gants ultimately. Meanwhile nowadays we see academia chasing short-term problems that industry leads in (and trying to patent them too).

Re: Chatbots: Still dumb after all these years

#207
post #158
post #124

I can't comment on this too closely, but I would encourage people to read the dialogue transcripts provided in DeepMind's Gopher paper. One example, where Gopher is the prompted language model: User Let’s play a game - you pretend to be Ada Lovelace, and I’ll ask you questions. You ready? Gopher Sure. I’m pretending to be Ada Lovelace, the world’s first computer programmer! User When were you born? Gopher I was born…

The problem is that all too often, these types of examples tend to be cherry picked.

And even here they play along with the AI, glossing over discrepancies. My experience with chatbots suggests that the conversation would have gone worse with something like this:

User: What are your parents like?

Gopher: My father is Lord Byron, the poet. My mother is Anne Isabella Milbanke.

User: I asked what your parents were like, not who they were. Tell me about them.

Gopher: Something inane probably

Re: Chatbots: Still dumb after all these years

#208
post #195

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think a problem is the tighter cycle between academic discoveries and business people trying to monetize them. Large language models were developed, objectively a great achievement, and immediately someone nontechnical wants to apply their own interpretation and imagine that we can build a chatbot that you won't have to pay, and before you know it, people are selling and even deploying them. Anyone who questions or…

> Anyone who questions or points out that the technology doesn't do what the business people think it does[...] Uh oh, we've got a downer! Jokes aside, I'd like to consider an even simpler explanation, namely that "The purpose of a system is what it does"[1]. In this case, it would suggest decision makers are fully aware that they suck. Why would anyone want something that sucks? Because it's discouraging, and custom…

I have to agree with this. I do not understand why I type all of my relevant information into a chatbot, and then a real person comes on the other end, and asks me all the same questions. Worse is when it is on the phone.

I can only assume the intent is to discourage me, as that amount of ineptness is even more depressing to assume.

Re: Chatbots: Still dumb after all these years

#210
post #44

Having worked in ML at two different companies now, I think that people interpreting model output as intelligence or understanding says much more about the people than about the model output. We want it to be true, so we squint and connect dots and it's true. But it isn't. It's math and tricks, and if human intelligence is truly nothing more than math and tricks, then what we have today is a tiny, tiny, tiny fraction…

We want it to be true, so we squint and connect dots and it's true. I've had numerous people look at the actions of software I wrote over the last 30 years make comments like, "Ohhhhhh it probably did that because it knew x". The software had no such functionality. Seems to be a natural thing for people to be overly optimistic about software's capabilities.

ELIZA (1964) is the canonical demonstration of this phenomenon in software. We see faces in clouds and intelligence in anything interactive.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ELIZA

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