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Chatbots: Still dumb after all these years

mindmatters.ai

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Re: Chatbots: Still dumb after all these years

#51

Having worked in ML at two different companies now, I think that people interpreting model output as intelligence or understanding says much more about the people than about the model output. We want it to be true, so we squint and connect dots and it's true. But it isn't. It's math and tricks, and if human intelligence is truly nothing more than math and tricks, then what we have today is a tiny, tiny, tiny fraction…

I still have an IRC chat bot (eggdrop module). It sounds more interesting than some of the bots I see today and which are supposed to be the result of intense ML engineering.

I guess the tricks did not evolve much.

Re: Chatbots: Still dumb after all these years

#52
I haven't used anything with GPT-3 first hand (chatbot or other use cases) so reading this article was one of my first exposure to it. It somewhat surprises me that a chatbot powered by GPT-3 doesn't seem that much different from the SmarterChild of AIM in the late 90s / early 00s. That was 20 years ago.

Short of any real break-through in AI, I feel that a chatbot just isn't something most consumers want to use.

A few years ago I bought into the chatbot hype for a while (the Facebook Messenger API opening up for building chatbots was a major catalyst for that particular hype cycle; that was when I was into it), and explored a lot in building one and other AI services that helped build one. It was quickly apparent that for the most part it's simply an iteration of the "answer machine navigation tree" that 800 numbers already had, just in text form.

There was a widespread notion at the time that users wanted chatbots for reasons like wanting to speak in a human langauage with a company to get what they need and solve problems as well as having context from chat history. I think the industry has confused the mechanism (the chat) with the intention (speaking with a human). Consumers prefer a chat sure, that's because they don't want to waste time being on hold on a phone (anyone who has called customer service at any big org or the gov't would know); but ultimately their intention is to speak with a human that can solve problems. When problems arise that require speaking to a human, that's usually not something a bot or a program could solve.

Re: Chatbots: Still dumb after all these years

#53
Chatbots were trendy because people thought they were AI and could do the same work as a human. They were wrong and now chatbots have become nothing but a fad.

What's more useful are live chats where users can contact someone for help live on a chat screen. This is the future, not stupid chatbots.

Re: Chatbots: Still dumb after all these years

#54

Having worked in ML at two different companies now, I think that people interpreting model output as intelligence or understanding says much more about the people than about the model output. We want it to be true, so we squint and connect dots and it's true. But it isn't. It's math and tricks, and if human intelligence is truly nothing more than math and tricks, then what we have today is a tiny, tiny, tiny fraction…

That interpretation of communication is how we develop and craft the personalities of children. There is nothing about our reaction to the pre-conscious language these bots are displaying that doesn’t fall in line with our own normal development patterns. And in the long run the same desire will lead us to develop bots that are capable of thinking.

These bots seem equivalent to an adult with amnesia after every spoken sentence. Absolute understanding of the language, and some impressive display of recalling facts, but without any understanding of the environment or context of the conversation.

This is polar opposite to any experience I've had with children. Children are aware of their environment and have complex thoughts, but sometimes they are unable to convey those thoughts with words. Children seem to remember conversations, and if I were to say "Go get me a red lego" and then subsequently say "now a green one" there is no ambiguity or confusion.

To me as these bots have "advanced" it has only highlighted how absurdly far we are from anything even approaching actual intelligence, even the intelligence of a toddler. The contextual awareness I have seen in bots is not much more than a cheap trick that is trivially fooled in scenarios that would not fool a child.

Re: Chatbots: Still dumb after all these years

#55
post #7

Good points. But language models are usually then fine-tuned for specific tasks. Contextual reasoning in NLG is a specific area of research that attacks some of the points raised and certainly BERT wasn't pretrained to solve all tasks in NLP/ NLG area of research.

I had a positive interaction with a chat bot yesterday that serves as a good example of what you describe. My home internet had an outage and I went to my cable company's website to report the incident and perhaps get an ETA of when it will be restored. I interacted fully with a customer service chat bot which handled the whole situation flawlessly.

Re: Chatbots: Still dumb after all these years

#56

While the tech is constantly advancing, I have yet to use one in anger that fully solved my problem outside of giving me information that's already easy to find. I think the only place it makes sense is in very very specific use-cases. Think about, say, a dental clinic. I would guess that if you put a human on chat support for a year in that setting, you'd see common themes emerging in customer problems. Maybe you de…

I think this gets at what the actual value prop (not the marketed one) of chatbots really is: scale.

There will not, in the foreseeable future, be a model/ensemble/pipeline capable of conversing at the level of a human representative. Thinking of them as "humans, but cheaper" is destined to fail.

There are, however, use-cases where communicating with a huge group of individuals on a one-on-one level is useful. For example, years ago a company called Mainstay (then AdmitHub) built a chatbot for Georgia State designed to reduce "summer melt," a phenomenon in which intending freshmen drop off between graduating high school and enrolling in classes. For this use case, getting human-level conversation wasn't as critical as effective performance on tasks like question answering. Their bot, Pounce, was credited with a ~20% decrease in summer melt. They have a proper study here: https://mainstay.com/case-study/how-georgia-state-university...

This is an example, in my opinion, of the sweet-spot where intelligent, individualized, but not-near-human-level communication is needed, at a scale that goes beyond what you could reasonably do manually without an enormous dedicated staff.

Now, I don't know how numerous those opportunities are, or if they come anywhere close to the level of hype and funding chatbot companies have received. I just think that in a vacuum, there is a set of problems where they have value.

Re: Chatbots: Still dumb after all these years

#57
post #8
post #4

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>Yet another Next Big Thing that I was right about predicting would fail. I was hired at my current company 4 years ago to work on our chatbot client. Despite years of engineering effort put into an NLP based decision tree system, over 90% of chats were still falling back to a live agent. They just recently sunsetted the product for lack of interest. Thank god that fad is over. Web design trends come and go, but that…

I got the impression the entire thing was pushed by Slack probably by way of some PR firm. I utterly despise how mindlessly faddish this field is. For a field supposedly so full of smart people who often pride themselves on being "contrarian" (sometimes to a fault), people sure do bleat like sheep when the next fad comes along.

I think a lot of people wanted it to be true because building a chatbot is way easier than building a full 2-dimensional UI. To the extent that you can get users to use a command-line interface in the 21st century you've made your job as a developer much easier.

Re: Chatbots: Still dumb after all these years

#58
I use chatbots to search for pages on websites where search is otherwise broken, like one of my bank's. I have never found a good use for them.

They were once advertised to help your granny use the website but I haven't met a chatbot that could help me do something.

Re: Chatbots: Still dumb after all these years

#59
post #12

My favourite flaw of chatbots is exposed by ELIZA. Not chatting with ELIZA, (though, it does suffer this flaw) but using responses inspired by that program. "Please elaborate on that" or "tell me more about [noun]" etc. Bots appear to have zero lines of short term memory, and utterly fail to pick up a reference to the thing that they just said. My favorite being bot> [something plausibly human-sounding] me> What do y…

I'm not trying to be mean or break any HN rules, but did you read the article? It basically covers what you asked and was quite a revelation to me. Others in here point out that GPT-3 is not a chatbot which is good info, but I also wonder if there is anything out there that can even "remember" the context of a conversation it's supposed to be having. Particularly interesting is the question from the article, "who is…

> Particularly interesting is the question from the article, "who is the current president". Seems like a slam dunk but it could not be answered. Interestingly this is a common question paramedics will give to people who have suffered head injuries to assess consciousness.

Not sure you'd still be able to use that question considered the insane QAnon followers that would answer "Trump".

Though I suppose even that answer would still at least prove some level of consciousness.

Re: Chatbots: Still dumb after all these years

#60

I really hate when companies hide behind chatbots. Like, NOOOO, your "AI" chatbot didn't help me - get me an actual person.

Kind of a weird tangent but I had a very interesting experience with one of these customer support chatbots recently. My ISP apparently now requires that all customers communicate with their chatbot as the only point of contact. So, naturally, I was pseudo-outraged because I know chatbots are just a money-saving gimmick that reduces workload by driving away 80% of support requests regardless of whether they actually…

> Long story short, I proposed the question to the chatbot in all its complexity, assuming it would be handed over to a human agent to read the transcript. The chatbot immediately understood the question and provided the exact response I needed.

How do you know it did? I.e. that a human it was passed to didn't just pass your inverted Turing test!

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