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No Way to Grow Up

nytimes.com

701–710 of 714 posts

Re: No Way to Grow Up

#701

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> You keep turning the discussion to teachers, but frankly, that's not germain [sic] to the initial comment in this thread Teachers do the the bulk of the work in keeping "schools" going. A majority of the essential employees in schools are teachers, but a very large margin (the next biggest is janitors and other support staff). Perhaps I am overreacting because discussion about this I have heard tends to descend int…

I don't know what you are going towards. I'll put aside (for the moment) any argument about school improving productivity for working parents. You keep mentioning that there are ways to take care of kids that don't include "kids in schools with teachers" - you want teachers removed from the equation because they shouldn't be forced to be exposed to kids. No matter how I think about the alternatives, I keep coming bac…

The difference is that in all 3 of your examples you don't have the "Of course it's obvious that the other person should do this job during a pandemic" entitlement.

In your examples, you'd probably pay the retired person or underemployed friend extra during a pandemic. You'd probably make sure that the other families you were exposed to had adequate PPE and weren't exposed to unnecessary risk. If your kid misbehaved, you'd probably keep them at home instead of sending them to other families. You probably can't just abstract them into a "childcare unit" abstraction.

But with schools, you seem to be able to do this. The drumbeat seems to be "Kids should be in school come hell or high water", instead of "We would humbly request other people to take care of and teach our kids, and we understand that they are overworked and there's extreme health risks".

My suggestion for you is – if you really believe in Example 3, why not do it? Try it and see; I guarantee you'll run into the equivalent of staffing problems before long. If not, win-win – you just got free school!

Re: No Way to Grow Up

#702

I'd love to see an emotionless cost-benefit analysis of different approaches to handling schools in the pandemic. I suspect the cost of closed schools far exceeds what we intuitively think, since it's not just the educational loss now, it's the cost of future mitigations due to the problems we're causing, and a large cost of lost productivity by parents. How many person-hours of lost productivity is there for each da…

Sweden apparently put the values of kids time in school very high, since schools were open all pandemic long for many kids, I believe up to ninth grade, and only high schoolers had some limited periods of online/home schooling. College/university was of course different so more like the recommendations for everyone else.

Re: No Way to Grow Up

#703

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I agree, it's the party who thinks our entire system is racist because it was built by the euro-centric male slave owning patriarchy. Thinking it needs to be torn down and made into a NWO by way of packing the supreme court, flooding in illegal immigrants to vote, letting riots happen, and pushing CRT and gender theory on elementary students is definitely an attack on democracy. Forgive me if I'm not really that conc…

How much TV do you watch?

How many people were killed Jan. 6th? How many citizens were under threat?

Re: No Way to Grow Up

#704

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There is no "we" here. There is personal choice about your own body. If you are scared then stay home and isolate. If you are not then go about your normal life. No once is forcing you to do anything. At some point you need to take personal responsibility and make your own decisions instead of waiting for some "expert" to tell you how to live. What do you want? Someone to whisper soothing words and tell you to just w…

Where do you get that it's a personal choice? It's not. I'm not afraid of Covid. I just don't want to contribute to the spread and death.

>I'm not afraid of Covid. I just don't want to contribute to the spread and death.

This is doublespeak.

No one is being forced out in public around people. Anyone doing so has a made a personal decision and they have accepted the consequences. You are not responsible for other people's decisions.

Re: No Way to Grow Up

#706
post #705

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How many people were killed Jan. 6th? How many citizens were under threat?

I know of one, but there aren't any statues of her going up anytime soon.

Yep that's my point. The only person hurt Jan. 6th was one of the "insurgents". So, why is mainstream media pushing this narrative so hard?

Re: No Way to Grow Up

#707

Earlier quoted context omitted.

My mother was a teacher for 20+ years and my wife is a teacher. I know exactly how schools are handling this. They're quarantining people that aren't sick, that's why they don't have staff. They've scared away substitutes with unscientific fear mongering about super spreader events in school. This is a problem of over-testing and unnecessary quarantining not a shortage.

Just curious then, how does your wife's school handle the case of a faculty member dying of Covid and not being able to find a replacement or sub? Do they just put more work on everyone else? In my district, they replaced the history teacher with the music teacher because she died right before the holidays due to Covid (if you're wondering, the history teacher doesn't have a background in music). They manage this by…

>faculty member dying of Covid and not being able to find a replacement or sub?

Hasn't happened, and the numbers show that would be rare.

>Is your position that no one has been quarantined who legitimately needed to be? Or hospitalized? Or died? Or retired? It's 100% people who aren't sick being quarantined, and that's why schools don't have enough faculty and staff?

Nope, didn't say that. Strawman.

>Do you think it's unreasonable for such people to not want to subject themselves to a school environment at this time?

Maybe they should focus on why they're only able to get old immuno-compromised individuals to substitute.

>I don't see how lifting quarantine requirements and testing less makes things better for teachers.

By allowing staff that's not actually sick to teach, therefore you're not loading extra burden on fewer teachers. By also allowing students in the classroom, lessening the need to make lessons for quarantined individuals.

>I don't see how lifting quarantine requirements and testing less makes things better for teachers.

School isn't for teachers, it's for educating kids to be productive members of society. Any teacher worth their salt knows this.

>They are ostensibly front-line essential workers

You're right, so they need to start acting like it instead of following the lead of their unions (e.g. Chicago) and completely shutting down the system for what's essentially a cold at this point. I don't see nurses, emt's, or firefighters doing these things.

The entire problem here is that you're basing your stance off of false assumptions. COVID has never been an issue in schools because children do not contract it at a high rate and they do not spread it at a high rate. So, going to remote learning was never a good solution to begin with. You know what the biggest burden my wife had was during all of this? Creating multiple lesson plans to try and teach to remote kids who were sitting in their rooms pretending to pay attention in Google Classroom while actually playing video games not giving a shit about school for a year. She 100% would have preferred being in person and reiterated that daily to me.

Re: No Way to Grow Up

#708

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Just curious then, how does your wife's school handle the case of a faculty member dying of Covid and not being able to find a replacement or sub? Do they just put more work on everyone else? In my district, they replaced the history teacher with the music teacher because she died right before the holidays due to Covid (if you're wondering, the history teacher doesn't have a background in music). They manage this by…

>faculty member dying of Covid and not being able to find a replacement or sub? Hasn't happened, and the numbers show that would be rare. >Is your position that no one has been quarantined who legitimately needed to be? Or hospitalized? Or died? Or retired? It's 100% people who aren't sick being quarantined, and that's why schools don't have enough faculty and staff? Nope, didn't say that. Strawman. >Do you think it'…

> Hasn't happened, and the numbers show that would be rare.

Okay, but it has happened to other people, and even if it is a rare occurrence, it can throw an entire school district off axis. That's been shown to be true even if it hasn't happened in your wife's particular school.

> Nope, didn't say that. Strawman.

What you said was "They're quarantining people that aren't sick, that's why they don't have staff". So now you're telling me now you are open to other possibilities. For instance the possibility that they don't have faculty/staff because sick people are being quarantined, or that many teachers are retiring and not being replaced?

> By allowing staff that's not actually sick to teach, therefore you're not loading extra burden on fewer teachers.

Okay, but what about in the cases where teachers are too sick to teach? Or when they have to take care of others who are sick?

> School isn't for teachers, it's for educating kids to be productive members of society. Any teacher worth their salt knows this.

School isn't for teachers, but you still need teachers to teach school. And if things aren't good for teachers, you're not going to be able to hire new ones. This is the very attitude that is causing so many to leave the field or avoid it entirely. Any teacher worth their salt also knows their worth, and they know when they're being exploited and disrespected.

> You're right, so they need to start acting like it

Well they have been acting like it for a very long time throughout this pandemic. Teachers have been teaching in person all year. They have actually died in service of their discipline and the nation due to this diseases despite the fact that you don't know any personally. They have done so at great cost to themselves financially, emotionally, and mentally while around them others, who are neither essential nor workers, have profited massively. What they are asking for now is to be supported and listened to, and not be called lazy, unpatriotic, un-American, traitors who deserve to be fired.

> The entire problem here is that you're basing your stance off of false assumptions.

I'm not basing my stance off of assumptions, I'm basing it off of experience. I am a teacher and what you say about students is just plain wrong. Maybe for small children it's true, but the kids I teach are teenagers and they spread covid just fine. The first week in class there was a massive outbreak as students mixed together after summer break -- over 250 cases were recorded. Some people got very sick. We went remote for a week, cases died down, and then we were back in the classroom. The rest of the semester went on uneventful.

This only worked because we had proper precautions. We had a vaccination mandate with 90% compliance. We had mandatory masks, mandatory and available testing, and mandatory quarantine. These are the kinds of measures that are nonstarters at public schools, but experience has shown they are needed to keep things open and running and teachers happy. Teachers were giving the requested tools, and they got the job done. In other cases teachers are being disrespected, minimized, even demonized, and in those cases teachers aren't getting the job done, because they can't.

Yes it's true that young children don't spread it according to the statistics. That's a relief! But I don't know how many times it needs to be said that children are not the only human beings in a school community, and the school is not a closed system. When community spread is as high as it is right now, it really doesn't matter how much children do or don't spread Covid!

> You know what the biggest burden my wife had was during all of this? Creating multiple lesson plans

Very true, I had that same problem! Based on my experience, I think there are approximately 0 teachers I know who would prefer teaching online to teaching in the classroom -- teaching to children in person is the entire joy of the profession. Without that, it's really not that rewarding of a job. But that's another issue of a lack of administrative support for teachers. Technology support staff could have been hired to help essential teaching workers through this time, but that never happened.

Re: No Way to Grow Up

#709

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I highly disagree. It is never too late. I will continue to roll up my sleeves and work for change and I hope you join me.

As a member of a marginalized community, I don’t have that luxury. Hope for the best, plan for the worst. I’m doing my part in my own way.

Best of luck to you on your journey, friend

Re: No Way to Grow Up

#710
post #636

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Descriptive qualification is a necessary stepping stone to qualification though, so of course society built on it first. Something must be described and defined before it can be counted. Modernity emerges from humanity first; influences it second.

So what? Weaving is a necessary stepping stone to making lounge suits. That doesn’t mean humanity has been destined to wear lounge suits all along.

The lounge-suit example is so much more specific than the topic at hand, that's just a farcical comparison. Any sort of broad logic will break down if you try and stretch it 1:1 to more narrow situations.
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