Elizabeth Holmes found guilty • Hacker News Board

Re: Elizabeth Holmes found guilty

#981

Post by jacquesm » Wed, Jan 05, 2022, 6:57 PM UTC

FuriouslyAdrift wrote: post #967

ineedasername wrote: post #792

Ironic that her board of directors-- one of the most praised aspects of Theranos-- probably hurt her when it came to going after her with criminal charges. These were some of the most well-connected people in the country, and making them look like fools did her no favors. Once it was clear this wouldn't go away quietly, I'd bet they pushed hard to ensure criminal prosecution. (which I think she deserved anyway.) Espe…

Holme's parents are very connected with regards to the federal government. Her father was a VP at Enron, CFO of the EPA, Director of US Trade and Development Agency, etc. Her mother worked as a lobbyist and at one point was a Congressional staffer.

> Her father was a VP at Enron

That's not exactly an endorsement.

Re: Elizabeth Holmes found guilty

#982

Post by jacquesm » Wed, Jan 05, 2022, 7:11 PM UTC

creato wrote: post #498

metadat wrote: post #250

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Hopefully she'll get more, SV could use a good example. Otherwise it signals that wantrepeneurs can keep doing it with minimal repercussions.

Can you name another "wantrepeneur" that needed deterring by this case? I don't follow startups that closely. The only example I can think of is Elon Musk's "full self driving" promises, but the gap between promise and reality is a lot smaller in that case. Even then, the claims are still mostly future timelines, not "it works now, no I can't show you, trust me!!"

uBeam.

Re: Elizabeth Holmes found guilty

#983

Post by thehappypm » Wed, Jan 05, 2022, 9:37 PM UTC

kstrauser wrote: post #210

neom wrote: post #136

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I followed the case very closely, read the transcripts I could find daily etc. What Elizabeth did wasn't far from what many many many founders do. This was held to a legal standard, sure, but let's be real here... since when was the legal standard the SV standard? Is SV really the bastion of morality and legal ethics? Is that the new norm, good behaviour? Notably some investors refused to participate and iirc Draper…

> people are having success with her ideas today Citation needed. The whole concept has a critical flaw, as pointed out by her engineering staff and medical advisors: blood tests require a certain minimum volume of blood to work, and that's inescapable because blood components are discrete, not continuous. For example, a drop of blood is about .05mL, or about 1/20th of a milliliter. A common testing sample size in a…

What chemical would only be present in 10 per mL?

A mL of water has ~10^22 water molecules in it. Dilute substances are usually measured in ppm (parts per million). Even 1 ppm would have 10^16 molecules. I think your orders of magnitude are way off here.

Re: Elizabeth Holmes found guilty

#984

Post by m3047 » Thu, Jan 06, 2022, 12:26 AM UTC

geophile wrote: post #956

m3047 wrote: post #944

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> It's Borat trying to patent a hoverboard Wow! That's interesting! While nobody has been paying attention, forward-looking patents have become acceptable (I don't agree that this is a good thing). Seriously, that's a fact; and here comes Holmes apparently claiming to have the science, am I right? There is language which apparently (IANAL) needs to be watched especially around verb tense when filing such patents.

Can you provide some examples?

https://law.stanford.edu/wp-content/uploads/2019/06/Fictitio...

https://papers.ssrn.com/sol3/papers.cfm?abstract_id=3202493

One of the harmful externalities of the practice is that when incorrect / impossible prophetic claims are made (and they are), they negatively impact the progress of science since they are generally presumed to be true and so might be used to refute a legitimate science or technical claim.

Re: Elizabeth Holmes found guilty

#985

Post by bherms » Thu, Jan 06, 2022, 2:18 AM UTC

sharkweek wrote: post #25

This will sound weird but I am a collector of swag from large companies that have collapsed due to anything from mismanagement to outright fraud. While we're a rare breed there are others like me out there. Still, even with this oddly specific marketplace being small, let me tell you, the Theranos swag market is hot right now (check eBay if you're curious). Wish I had gone big on this one earlier, because I have a fe…

So... Found this thread via a former coworker...

I have a friend who is cousins with Elizabeth Holmes. His mom was her first investor and she has the original stock certificates... They're planning on turning them into NFT's and selling them.

Re: Elizabeth Holmes found guilty

#986

Post by throwawaylinux » Thu, Jan 06, 2022, 9:27 AM UTC

s_dev wrote: post #664

throwawaylinux wrote: post #182

Earlier quoted context omitted.

She was not found guilty on any charges of harming or swindling patients. This was about the wealthy investors. They will come after you whether you fake medical devices or bombs.

They were the only people not guaranteed an outcome -- investment is inherently risky. Medical procedures are not.

Did you just say that medical procedures are not inherently risky? The data does not support that claim.

In any case I'm not sure how the comment addresses what I wrote.

Re: Elizabeth Holmes found guilty

#987

Post by magicroot75 » Thu, Jan 06, 2022, 12:27 PM UTC

droidno9 wrote: post #521

tptacek wrote: post #78

Time to kibitz on the likely sentence! You can get the federal sentencing guidelines here: https://www.ussc.gov/sites/default/files/pdf/guidelines-manu... They're long and mostly not relevant except for the sections pertaining to Holmes conduct. Here's the indictment: https://www.justice.gov/usao-ndca/page/file/1135066/download Holmes was found guilty of one 18 USC 1349 charge, and 3 18 USC 1343 charges; the 1343's s…

Don't discount the possibility that she'll have her sentence commuted by a future President. Look at the roster of political heavyweights that she was able to attract to the company. It wouldn't surprise me if one or more of these people still have an affinity for her and, at the right time, throw some good words in the President's ears on her behalf.

With how public facing this trial has been, it'd be political suicide to pardon her. Unless new evidence exonerating her were to surface.

Re: Elizabeth Holmes found guilty

#988

Post by troyvit » Thu, Jan 06, 2022, 6:09 PM UTC

azth wrote: post #912

troyvit wrote: post #877

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I feel bad for her too. She messed up, and probably did it intentionally too. That's messed up, but how much physical harm did people suffer? 60 years of prison time's worth? Near as I can tell a bunch of investors lost some money. Are they on the street now, begging for dinner? Kinda doubt it. Maybe there's a more fitting punishment.

> but how much physical harm did people suffer Is physical harm the only harm that matters? > Are they on the street now, begging for dinner? That's not how justice works.

Why is it justice to dole out physical harm (prison) for actions that didn't cause physical harm? America has one of the highest incarceration rates in the world (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Comparison_of_United_States_in...).

Re: Elizabeth Holmes found guilty

#989

Post by troyvit » Thu, Jan 06, 2022, 6:11 PM UTC

exdsq wrote: post #971

troyvit wrote: post #877

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I feel bad for her too. She messed up, and probably did it intentionally too. That's messed up, but how much physical harm did people suffer? 60 years of prison time's worth? Near as I can tell a bunch of investors lost some money. Are they on the street now, begging for dinner? Kinda doubt it. Maybe there's a more fitting punishment.

Her lawyers pressure resulted in Ian Gibbons suicide [0], they provided false medical results that could have missed crucial health results, the provided false medical results that could have caused high levels of stress and worry, etc... [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ian_Gibbons_(biochemist)

That would be a separate case I would think, and not one that Gibbons' relatives would be likely to win.

Re: Elizabeth Holmes found guilty

#990

Post by troyvit » Thu, Jan 06, 2022, 9:03 PM UTC

zazzyzuzz wrote: post #929

troyvit wrote: post #877

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I feel bad for her too. She messed up, and probably did it intentionally too. That's messed up, but how much physical harm did people suffer? 60 years of prison time's worth? Near as I can tell a bunch of investors lost some money. Are they on the street now, begging for dinner? Kinda doubt it. Maybe there's a more fitting punishment.

I think the harm was caused by using the investors and prestige of the company to build the consumer confidence into passing faulty testing on to patients and some patients testified to receiving pretty devastating false positives and results. Their customer service was directed to minimize their potential failure rates until one of the later lab directors voided a lot of the faulty test results after discovering how…

That's the problem I have though. The people who were really hurt, will they get any restitution from this? Somehow I doubt it, but the investors will walk away feeling vindicated.