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No Way to Grow Up

nytimes.com

691–700 of 714 posts

Re: No Way to Grow Up

#691

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Socially and culturally it's undeniable, it's now completely unacceptable in my professional and social circles to publicly support one of our two political parties. Politically, outside of the obvious 2020 election, there has been unbridled and unprecedented government spending since at least the beginning of the pandemic. Whether it was justified is up for debate, we likely still haven't realized all of the effects…

Well, one of the parties has kind of gone off the rails with support for literal assaults on our democracy. You bet it's unacceptable.

I agree, it's the party who thinks our entire system is racist because it was built by the euro-centric male slave owning patriarchy. Thinking it needs to be torn down and made into a NWO by way of packing the supreme court, flooding in illegal immigrants to vote, letting riots happen, and pushing CRT and gender theory on elementary students is definitely an attack on democracy.

Forgive me if I'm not really that concerned about Qanon shaman taking selfies in the capital building or the FBI creating fake white supremacist groups.

Re: No Way to Grow Up

#692

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Top companies in the S&P 500 are delaying return to work because many tried it and were met with absolute mutiny. The vast majority of people got a taste of the remote life and don't want to return.

> The vast majority of people got a taste of the remote life and don't want to return. Certainly this couldn't be the case for teachers teaching remotely – they probably enjoy their 10 hour workdays where they are standing most of the time and wearing a mask.

Very true, teachers unions are fighting the return to schools hard. I was referring more to your typical white collar office job, i.e. those employed by the S&P 500.

Re: No Way to Grow Up

#693

Mainstream media continues to dance around the word "adultism."

Why is that a useful term here?

Is it useful for succinctly highlighting how we've made a world and numerous societies that ignore the voices of the young and exclude them from decision-making or having access to systems that govern their lives?

Re: No Way to Grow Up

#694

Earlier quoted context omitted.

$450k/class/year needs to pay for only one teacher for one year.

2 teachers per BSDer's original comment, but it does sound like he missed the "per year" part of the $450k.

I did miss it. I, for some reason, thought that $450K was referring to the new buildings.

However, I would like to point out that even if I take only $12K, that's $360K and that's what other good countries think is perfectly reasonably for that classroom.

I do agree that if you allocated that $360K, you get roughly 2 teachers per 15 (4 per 30) students which is right at what you need.

So, effectively wipe out the administration and we're good? Unfortunately, I never see that as a solution to "educational problems" either.

Re: No Way to Grow Up

#695

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You keep turning the discussion to teachers, but frankly, that's not germain to the initial comment in this thread, which simply stated that the costs of this pandemic to children may be much higher than we realize. No one has even argued for a specific policy like keeping schools open no matter the risks. But you seem unwilling to simply concede that this is an ongoing disaster for kids. I mean, remote learning has…

> You keep turning the discussion to teachers, but frankly, that's not germain [sic] to the initial comment in this thread Teachers do the the bulk of the work in keeping "schools" going. A majority of the essential employees in schools are teachers, but a very large margin (the next biggest is janitors and other support staff). Perhaps I am overreacting because discussion about this I have heard tends to descend int…

I don't know what you are going towards. I'll put aside (for the moment) any argument about school improving productivity for working parents.

You keep mentioning that there are ways to take care of kids that don't include "kids in schools with teachers" - you want teachers removed from the equation because they shouldn't be forced to be exposed to kids.

No matter how I think about the alternatives, I keep coming back to a building shaped like a school, staffed with people that look like teachers.

Example 1:

I get a retired person to watch my kids. Well, this person is still exposed to my kids (just like a teacher), and exposed to my house. Also, where am I going to find a retired person who is willing to be in my house, but not willing to go to the local school and do the exact same work?

Example 2: I get an underemployed friend to watch my kids. I don't know any underemployed people - they all have kids and jobs like me. Would I find someone on the internet? I'm certainly not going to let a stranger take care of my kids... not unless that person had similar qualifications as a teacher

Example 3: maybe I partner up with other families. We take turns watching our kids. 5 families, we watch our kids 1 day a week, we work 4 days a week. It's awesome. And I just invited homeschooling. If we are really good, we'll expand. And I just invented school.

You end with this

> A society with more cohesion that balances responsibility of child rearing across multiple people would have done a much better job

I'm pretty sure child rearing has been balanced across multiple people in our society. Many (not all) families have 2 parents. Their kids go to school with people. They may be involved in sports, coached by people. They may even go to places of worship, with more people.

Re: No Way to Grow Up

#696
post #456

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I highly suspect there's room for disruption in at-home education - it's so terrible right now. It'd be interesting to see if VR is a possible solution for such use cases. I think VR tech has to advance a bit more (in terms of ease of use, as well as affordability) before it can be used this way, but these early adopters' experience (see https://blog.immersed.team/working-from-orbit-39bf95a6d385 ) seems pretty positi…

Students learned with nothing more than books for hundreds of years and were better educated than most people today.

>Students learned with nothing more than books for hundreds of years

I don't think that is true

>and were better educated than most people today.

I'm really certain that isn't true

Re: No Way to Grow Up

#697

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Who are we to make that decision? I'm not an immunologist or infectious disease expert, and I'm assuming you're not either.

There is no "we" here. There is personal choice about your own body. If you are scared then stay home and isolate. If you are not then go about your normal life. No once is forcing you to do anything. At some point you need to take personal responsibility and make your own decisions instead of waiting for some "expert" to tell you how to live. What do you want? Someone to whisper soothing words and tell you to just w…

Where do you get that it's a personal choice? It's not.

I'm not afraid of Covid. I just don't want to contribute to the spread and death.

Re: No Way to Grow Up

#698

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Well, one of the parties has kind of gone off the rails with support for literal assaults on our democracy. You bet it's unacceptable.

I agree, it's the party who thinks our entire system is racist because it was built by the euro-centric male slave owning patriarchy. Thinking it needs to be torn down and made into a NWO by way of packing the supreme court, flooding in illegal immigrants to vote, letting riots happen, and pushing CRT and gender theory on elementary students is definitely an attack on democracy. Forgive me if I'm not really that conc…

How much TV do you watch?

Re: No Way to Grow Up

#699
post #605

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You’re being a little too cryptic.

COVID procedures negatively impacted schooling, it follows that removing COVID restrictions and procedures will positively impact schooling. That's all fine and good so far... Let's posit going back to 2018-era schooling will provide 4 Units of School Improvement. 4 USI sounds great, right? What if there was 40 USI just sitting on the shelf waiting to be picked up? But it's in a blind spot. It was there waiting in 20…

This is no less cryptic. Either tell us what you think the solution is and point us to these primary sources that "lay it bare" or don't bother saying anything. Dancing around it like this is pointless.

Re: No Way to Grow Up

#700

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Schools in my district are shut down because there aren’t enough substitute teachers to fill in for sick or retired faculty. The older ones are getting sick and dying, or quitting before they do. The younger ones don’t want to be paid $35k a year to be screamed at by parents for not teaching subjects the way parents want them to be taught. Browse /r/teachers some time. It used to be a sub full of teachers venting ste…

My mother was a teacher for 20+ years and my wife is a teacher. I know exactly how schools are handling this. They're quarantining people that aren't sick, that's why they don't have staff. They've scared away substitutes with unscientific fear mongering about super spreader events in school. This is a problem of over-testing and unnecessary quarantining not a shortage.

Just curious then, how does your wife's school handle the case of a faculty member dying of Covid and not being able to find a replacement or sub? Do they just put more work on everyone else? In my district, they replaced the history teacher with the music teacher because she died right before the holidays due to Covid (if you're wondering, the history teacher doesn't have a background in music). They manage this by siphoning teacher prep time, which means the history teacher is covering music instead of prepping for history class. What is your district's protocol?

> They're quarantining people that aren't sick, that's why they don't have staff.

Is your position that no one has been quarantined who legitimately needed to be? Or hospitalized? Or died? Or retired? It's 100% people who aren't sick being quarantined, and that's why schools don't have enough faculty and staff?

> They've scared away substitutes with unscientific fear mongering about super spreader events in school.

Coming from a family of teachers, I'm sure you're aware that many if not most substitute teachers are older, retired, and often have multiple comorbidities related to Covid. Some of them are immunocompromised and can't even get vaccinated. Couple this with the fact that many schools do not have vaccination, testing, or masking requirements. Do you think it's unreasonable for such people to not want to subject themselves to a school environment at this time?

> This is a problem of over-testing and unnecessary quarantining not a shortage.

I understand you think this is fear mongering and people being quarantined who are healthy, but at the same time people are also actually dying and being hospitalized with very severe illness. You can call it a problem of quarantining healthy people and over testing, but that doesn't relate to the fact that vacancies are being created by Covid, and they aren't being filled because people look at the shitshow that education has become with Qanon craziness infiltrating school boards, and the demonization that they are getting online (being called lazy and that they should all be fired) and they nope out real quick. Why bother?

I don't see how lifting quarantine requirements and testing less makes things better for teachers. It doesn't make the field more attractive for new teachers. It doesn't help retention. It doesn't give kids a better environment for education. An alternative solution might be to impose a vaccination mandate, increase testing, better facilities with improved ventilation, and hazard pay for teachers along with a big freaking raise. But that seems to be a non starter.

Instead we've chosen a path of disrespect, and that's actually a big component of this. Coming from a family of teachers, I'm sure you've heard this. Moreso than feeling afraid, teachers feel disrespected and disillusioned. They are ostensibly front-line essential workers, but they are called lazy, called unpatriotic, are underpaid, and overworked. There is a huge gap between the rhetoric/reality about how essential teachers are to managing this pandemic, and the attitudes and compensation they receive.

Also, it's pretty condescending to suggest that this is all in teachers' heads, and they are just the victims of a fear mongering campaign. Stopping testing doesn't prevent teachers from being hospitalized or dying (and teachers are indeed dying). It also doesn't prevent their family members from being hospitalized or dying and teachers having to leave their jobs to take care of their family. It doesn't take many vacancies due to deaths or hospitalizations or retirements to completely throw a school into disarray -- especially considering the massive class sizes that many have to deal with. There's no extra slack other teachers can pick up. They are already stretched to the extreme when things are fully staffed.

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