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Darling – Run Mac apps on Linux

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Re: Darling – Run Mac apps on Linux

#101

Post by torstenvl »

roblabla wrote: post #88
torstenvl wrote: post #82

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Interesting. I have had to compile drivers for every Linux install I've done in the past three years. Ubuntu, Xubuntu, elementaryOS, Pop!_OS, etc. Maybe we can all accept that people have different experiences? And of course, you're under no obligation to listen to any of us whine, but if, on the off chance, you happen to want more people to like Linux, it seems like taking people's experiences seriously would be a g…

I'm curious what drivers you've had to compile? The only ones I've ever had to compile were GPU drivers for very very recent cards. On my current laptop, the only thing that doesn't work is the fingerprint reader (which doesn't even have a driver, makes me sad) - everything else is built into all the distros I've tried (Ubuntu, Fedora, NixOS). I am pretty curious in what places is the driver story behind?

Drivers for virtualized hardware is one big one. Parallels tools have to be recompiled for pretty much every new kernel version because Linux refuses to stabilize the kernel API. Often I have to edit the drivers by hand (example: replacing "sem" to "lock" for kernel 5.8 because apparently driver compatibility isn't as important as catering to kernel devs who don't know what a semaphore is?).

In case you don't think virtualization is a valid use case, this should hold true for any drivers distributed outside the kernel. It's also true for newer hardware - WiFi 6 has been a thing lately. And over the past couple years as laptops try to compete with Apple there have in fact been sound issues, though that one hasn't bit me personally.

Again, I want to stress that I'm not imputing some moral obligation for things to be different. But it is definitely a rough edge, it absolutely requires people to futz with compiling drivers, and it's something that makes some number of technical people say "screw it, this is too much of a pain in the neck."

In my opinion, investing in a proper driver architecture with a stable interface would be a massive step toward better Linux hardware support and broader adoption.

Re: Darling – Run Mac apps on Linux

#102

Post by seanw444 »

ivolimmen wrote: post #67
stuaxo wrote: post #51

Earlier quoted context omitted.

GUI will come eventually. Some Dev commandline tools and compilers are starting to work, so these kind of environments will probably come first which will provide better performance than running under virtual machines.

> Some Dev commandline tools and compilers are starting to work, so these kind of environments will probably come first which will provide better performance than running under virtual machines. Then it's not useful as the only thing interesting on macOs are the GUI applications. All the tools I used on macOs for the command line where already available on Linux.

As blunt as that is, I have to say I agree and thought the same thing reading through their page. I'm sure it's been quite a feat to get this far, but until GUI is supported well, I can't think of a single thing I'd ever personally use it for.

Re: Darling – Run Mac apps on Linux

#103

Post by lrvick »

twblalock wrote: post #43
freedomben wrote: post #20

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Having Linux run iOS, macOS, Android, and Windows applications running would be nothing less than mind-boggling, and would finally get people to stop yelling that nothing runs on Linux Nothing will stop those people from yelling that, because it hasn't been true in a very long time and that doesn't stop them. These are the same people who say they don't want to run Linux because they don't want to compile their sou…

> These are the same people who say they don't want to run Linux because they don't want to compile their sound card drivers. They are already way outside of rational territory and deep into religious territory. It's rational for me to want my sound card to work without having to compile code. No other operating system would make me compile code to fulfill such a rudimentary and basic expectation. That's not religion…

Comparing the experience of porting an OS to hardware that did not ship with it to an OS that comes with the hardware is arguing in bad faith.

I have personally ported Linux to many devices the manufacturer never intended it to run on and I even have code in the kernel. I can generally make Linux run on anything by compiling a custom kernel or drivers with maybe a custom patch or two.

I love having that freedom but that freedom is too often confused as the default end user experience of someone that goes to a store and buys a computer that ships with Linux.

When comparing Linux vs Windows or MacOS for end users then talking about porting to unsupported hardware is silly. If you want to run MacOS on unsupported hardware it will take some hacking too.

I have helped hundreds move to Linux many of whom are elderly and non technical. I have them go buy a computer that ships with Linux and is supported so they never need to open a terminal and everything just works. Dell, System76, and Purism all have fantastic offerings here and I do not know of anyone who has switched back.

Re: Darling – Run Mac apps on Linux

#105

Post by dkonofalski »

freedomben wrote: post #35
Osiris wrote: post #26

Earlier quoted context omitted.

To get my bluetooth adapter to work I had to find a third-party driver, compile it, and manually setup DKMS so it'll update whenever a new kernel gets installed. That's a much more complicated process that either macOS or Windows.

I don't doubt that happened to you, but I've had almost a dozen bluetooth devices and I've only had one not work OOTB. I'm using OnePlus Buds Pro with my linux laptop right now and it paired flawlessly. Generally speaking, bluetooth is a complicated and proprietary mess though and many (especially cheaper vendors) don't bother testing at all. I'm actually amazed that bluetooth works as well as it does on linux. Takin…

>I've only had one not work OOTB

That seems like a terrible success rate, though, doesn't it? 1 out 12 bluetooth devices failed to work whereas they work 100% on Windows? For the average user, that is definitely going to be a dealbreaker.

Re: Darling – Run Mac apps on Linux

#106

Post by KronisLV »

ogogmad wrote: post #99
KronisLV wrote: post #92

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> These are the same people who say they don't want to run Linux because they don't want to compile their sound card drivers. They are already way outside of rational territory and deep into religious territory. In their minds Linux hasn't changed a bit since 1999, even though if you were to compare mac os from that time period against modern linux, they would become enraged at the unfairness and injustice. In common…

Please read my comment over here about getting a good Linux laptop: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=29816495

Thanks, though nowadays i primarily use my desktop. At the time, for 215 euros, the netbook was suitable for the use case that i needed it to serve, though it definitely did take a bit of tinkering.

Now, if i actually wanted a laptop as a daily driver with Linux on it, i'd perhaps look into the direction of the ThinkPad models, either older or newer ones, whichever i could afford. In my experience, they have superior keyboards, good I/O, good driver support and are built to be reasonably sturdy (as long as you don't mind the bulkiness)! Granted, Lenovo might ruin the series in the future yet, after the whole rootkit scandal a few years ago.

Re: Darling – Run Mac apps on Linux

#107

Post by lrvick »

twblalock wrote: post #52
colordrops wrote: post #48

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You missed the point. You typically don't have to compile anything for your sound card, assuming you even have one anyone considering that motherboards have had integrated sound forever now.

Quoted post unavailable.

If you just want to be a consumer that does no tinkering then buy a computer that ships with a consumer focused Linux distro. Dell, Purism, System76, or even a Chromebook are more fair comparisons.

Stop claiming Linux is hard to use because it takes effort to run it on unsupported hardware... like any other OS.

Re: Darling – Run Mac apps on Linux

#108

Post by 999900000999 »

KronisLV wrote: post #95
999900000999 wrote: post #91

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes and no. I've found numerous times Ubuntu just doesn't want to work. Ether Wifi or Bluetooth is broken. Fedora seems to be a bit better, it's my daily driver on my old lightweight laptop. My big gaming PC runs Windows. I make music and play games with it, no matter what the FOSS community wants to think , Linux doesn't come close in these aspects. Each OS does different things well. Linux is very good for running…

> Windows is exceptional at gaming and game development ( really any C# dev). Visual Studio is the greatest IDE ever made. If I had to write C# in note pad I'd give up coding. Have you tried out Rider? https://www.jetbrains.com/rider/ It's one of the JetBrains commercial IDEs, but since i got the Ultimate package of their products for Java development and some other stuff, i also tried out Rider and found it to be pr…

I actually really like Android Studio, which is of course a Jet Brains product.

Visual Studio is going to be the best supported IDE for C#. I'm fine with having a Windows PC for that.

I still Dual boot on my old laptop

Re: Darling – Run Mac apps on Linux

#109

Post by pxmpxm »

ivolimmen wrote: post #67
stuaxo wrote: post #51

Earlier quoted context omitted.

GUI will come eventually. Some Dev commandline tools and compilers are starting to work, so these kind of environments will probably come first which will provide better performance than running under virtual machines.

> Some Dev commandline tools and compilers are starting to work, so these kind of environments will probably come first which will provide better performance than running under virtual machines. Then it's not useful as the only thing interesting on macOs are the GUI applications. All the tools I used on macOs for the command line where already available on Linux.

Sounds like an inverse of the homebrew project...

Re: Darling – Run Mac apps on Linux

#110

Post by waffle_maniac »

stuaxo wrote: post #51
dvirsky wrote: post #47

Looks like an incredible project, but if GUI is not working, what is the current use case for it? Command line apps are usually open source and can be compiled in either system. What are people using this for in day to day work?

GUI will come eventually. Some Dev commandline tools and compilers are starting to work, so these kind of environments will probably come first which will provide better performance than running under virtual machines.

How about GPU stuff? OpenGL?
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