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Darling – Run Mac apps on Linux

darlinghq.org

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Re: Darling – Run Mac apps on Linux

#41

Post by dmitriid »

freedomben wrote: post #20
mkdirp wrote: post #14

Lots of questions around GUI apps. As someone pointed out, GUI apps have been "almost" working for years. Darling looks great but it hasn't gotten near as much love as Wine has gotten. I've been keeping an eye on it, and will continue to keep an eye it, and I've noticed the development is very slow. At the rate it's going, it'll be years before it'll be a viable solution like Wine is. I hope visibility for it will in…

> Having Linux run iOS, macOS, Android, and Windows applications running would be nothing less than mind-boggling, and would finally get people to stop yelling that nothing runs on Linux Nothing will stop those people from yelling that, because it hasn't been true in a very long time and that doesn't stop them. These are the same people who say they don't want to run Linux because they don't want to compile their sou…

While Linux has changed, the rest of the world changed, too.

So yes, on the one hand people will want things like Sketch and Logic Pro, and on the other they will want good trackpads and reliable hibernation.

Re: Darling – Run Mac apps on Linux

#42

Post by smoldesu »

code_biologist wrote: post #32
txdv wrote: post #23

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Been playing a lot of steam games with proton, it is mind bogling how valve expanded from support for linux for the source engine to support 70% of the games.

70% of games big asterisk The giant youtube channel Linus Tech Tips has done a recent series of videos on gaming on linux. On Jan 1 they published a 15 min summary video that covers that 70% claim in a much more nuanced way: https://youtu.be/Rlg4K16ujFw Punchline: it's kinda true, but there's plenty of struggle for new and multiplayer games still.

It may be true, but it really depends on how new the games you want to play are. I don't consider myself a hardcore player, but I'm perfectly happy with the games I've got on Linux; Overwatch, Diablo 2/3, Warframe, Risk of Rain 2, the Fallout series... they all work fine. It's certainly no Mac when it comes to game compatibility. Really, the only time a game doesn't work on Linux is when the developers go out of their way to ensure you aren't running Linux; with the prevalence of anti-cheat that has indeed seen a bit of a fork in the road. But developers can also whitelist Linux users, and now that the Steam Deck is getting ready to ship to hundreds of thousands of future owners, those devs have an incentive to get their games on Linux.

I think "asterisk" is warranted, since there are still show-stopper games that won't run without their precious kernel-level anti-cheat (sorry professional Valorant players), but the asterisk is shrinking, not growing. It's a fairly small caviat at this point, especially for more casual audiences, and I kinda wonder why it was such a sticking point for Linus. Wine is not a panacea, but if you look at the landscape and see the majority of Windows software running, I think there's hope in that.

Re: Darling – Run Mac apps on Linux

#43

Post by twblalock »

freedomben wrote: post #20
mkdirp wrote: post #14

Lots of questions around GUI apps. As someone pointed out, GUI apps have been "almost" working for years. Darling looks great but it hasn't gotten near as much love as Wine has gotten. I've been keeping an eye on it, and will continue to keep an eye it, and I've noticed the development is very slow. At the rate it's going, it'll be years before it'll be a viable solution like Wine is. I hope visibility for it will in…

> Having Linux run iOS, macOS, Android, and Windows applications running would be nothing less than mind-boggling, and would finally get people to stop yelling that nothing runs on Linux Nothing will stop those people from yelling that, because it hasn't been true in a very long time and that doesn't stop them. These are the same people who say they don't want to run Linux because they don't want to compile their sou…

> These are the same people who say they don't want to run Linux because they don't want to compile their sound card drivers. They are already way outside of rational territory and deep into religious territory.

It's rational for me to want my sound card to work without having to compile code. No other operating system would make me compile code to fulfill such a rudimentary and basic expectation. That's not religion, that's usability.

I can't imagine trying to walk my parents through compiling a kernel driver to get their hardware working, and that's why I've never tried to get them to use Linux. If you want normal people to use Linux you should never, ever, ever ask them to even use a terminal, much less a compiler.

I've used Linux on the desktop, on and off, for over 20 years -- in fact, since the year 1999 as you mentioned. It still sucks. Every time I come back to it I have at least one driver problem. It's not ok, and it's not defensible. Instead of defending it and blaming critics for being "religious," admit that it has faults. Things only get better when we recognize the deficiencies and fix them, as Valve has been trying to do with Proton.

Re: Darling – Run Mac apps on Linux

#45

Post by als0 »

hn8788 wrote: post #39
code_biologist wrote: post #32

Earlier quoted context omitted.

70% of games big asterisk The giant youtube channel Linus Tech Tips has done a recent series of videos on gaming on linux. On Jan 1 they published a 15 min summary video that covers that 70% claim in a much more nuanced way: https://youtu.be/Rlg4K16ujFw Punchline: it's kinda true, but there's plenty of struggle for new and multiplayer games still.

There are even bigger caveats to that number than what they mentioned in the video. Since all the ratings are based on user reports, there is no standard for what is considered a working game. You can look through pretty much any game and find positive reports that mention frequent crashes, performance issues, missing textures, requires a custom proton version, etc., but since it launches, they gave it a thumbs up. I…

I can already envisage some poor Valve employee who's going through each ProtonDB entry to make individual workarounds for the Steam Deck release.

Re: Darling – Run Mac apps on Linux

#46

Post by OnlyMortal »

microtonal wrote: post #10
tomrod wrote: post #8

Excited to see this. Hopefully this resolves the application portability issue for Linux (e.g. Microsoft Office native apps)

If you want to run apps like Microsoft Office, Wine is probably a far better bet. I'd be surprised if Darling runs complex Cocoa apps anytime soon.

I’d guess doing the C APIs for CoreGraphics and using those under AppKit would be a way.

CoreFoundation already (partly) exists for FoundationKit support though I’d probably grab the GNUStep code for that.

Any old Carbon APIs might be a hassle.

Compositing is where it’d get tricky even with Ghostscript. It’d be slow without hardware support.

Impressed they can load dyld though. That’s a tricky thing to do.

Re: Darling – Run Mac apps on Linux

#47

Post by dvirsky »

Looks like an incredible project, but if GUI is not working, what is the current use case for it? Command line apps are usually open source and can be compiled in either system. What are people using this for in day to day work?

Re: Darling – Run Mac apps on Linux

#48

Post by colordrops »

twblalock wrote: post #43
freedomben wrote: post #20

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Having Linux run iOS, macOS, Android, and Windows applications running would be nothing less than mind-boggling, and would finally get people to stop yelling that nothing runs on Linux Nothing will stop those people from yelling that, because it hasn't been true in a very long time and that doesn't stop them. These are the same people who say they don't want to run Linux because they don't want to compile their sou…

> These are the same people who say they don't want to run Linux because they don't want to compile their sound card drivers. They are already way outside of rational territory and deep into religious territory. It's rational for me to want my sound card to work without having to compile code. No other operating system would make me compile code to fulfill such a rudimentary and basic expectation. That's not religion…

You missed the point. You typically don't have to compile anything for your sound card, assuming you even have one anyone considering that motherboards have had integrated sound forever now.

Re: Darling – Run Mac apps on Linux

#49

Post by jandrese »

jorvi wrote: post #34
Osiris wrote: post #26

Earlier quoted context omitted.

To get my bluetooth adapter to work I had to find a third-party driver, compile it, and manually setup DKMS so it'll update whenever a new kernel gets installed. That's a much more complicated process that either macOS or Windows.

For macOS to use a USB Ethernet adapter I had to hunt down some obscure driver, and after a certain macOS update it kept putting it in a folder on the desktop after each update despite it working if I just reinstalled it. I absolutely used to love macOS and thought that they must have the cleanest nicest code in the world because they have such a well-developed UI+UX, but in the end, the core code below it has the sa…

On the flipside I have an older but functional scanner[1] that doesn't have a driver for modern Windows (Latest version is for Windows 7 32-bit) or Mac (Latest version 10.6), but still works perfectly fine in Linux.

[1] https://www.usa.canon.com/internet/portal/us/home/support/de...

Re: Darling – Run Mac apps on Linux

#50

Post by colordrops »

Osiris wrote: post #26
freedomben wrote: post #20

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Having Linux run iOS, macOS, Android, and Windows applications running would be nothing less than mind-boggling, and would finally get people to stop yelling that nothing runs on Linux Nothing will stop those people from yelling that, because it hasn't been true in a very long time and that doesn't stop them. These are the same people who say they don't want to run Linux because they don't want to compile their sou…

To get my bluetooth adapter to work I had to find a third-party driver, compile it, and manually setup DKMS so it'll update whenever a new kernel gets installed. That's a much more complicated process that either macOS or Windows.

How long ago was this and what was the make and model? I haven't had Bluetooth driver problems for a while.
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