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TSMC’s Arizona Culture Clash

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Re: TSMC’s Arizona Culture Clash

#181

Post by JohnWhigham »

neonihil wrote: post #137

It’s like: People: We want stuff cheaply, immediately and in immense volume! Production: Moves to Asia People: We want jobs! Production: Opens a new factory in the USA People: We don’t want to work that much! Production: increases pay, which increases product cost People: this is too expensive. Can we buy from overseas cheaply instead? Production: Closes USA factory, moves back to Asia. People: we want jobs…

Electronics/anything that uses ICs should never have been as cheap as they are now. NAFTA has been a fucking disaster; we're addicted to cheap shit we don't need, and it's near-impossible to break. It affects every aspect of society.

Re: TSMC’s Arizona Culture Clash

#182

Post by contidrift »

CivBase wrote: post #178
Veen wrote: post #148

Earlier quoted context omitted.

One factor you are missing in that analysis: TSMC is very profitable—about $5 billion per quarter. Better working conditions don't have to mean more expensive products; it could instead mean reduced profits. https://focustaiwan.tw/business/202110140010

Where do those profits go? Presumably TSMC doesn't just sit on it. Surely they either invest it back into their business to stay competitive or deal it out as compensation.

I thought profits meant "the amount of income that remains after accounting for all expenses, debts, additional income streams, and operating costs."

Re: TSMC’s Arizona Culture Clash

#183

Post by paisawalla »

CivBase wrote: post #178
Veen wrote: post #148

Earlier quoted context omitted.

One factor you are missing in that analysis: TSMC is very profitable—about $5 billion per quarter. Better working conditions don't have to mean more expensive products; it could instead mean reduced profits. https://focustaiwan.tw/business/202110140010

Where do those profits go? Presumably TSMC doesn't just sit on it. Surely they either invest it back into their business to stay competitive or deal it out as compensation.

Profits generally go into the pockets (cotton lined pouches attached to trousers) of investors.

Re: TSMC’s Arizona Culture Clash

#184

Post by flyinglizard »

phkahler wrote: post #175
neonihil wrote: post #137

It’s like: People: We want stuff cheaply, immediately and in immense volume! Production: Moves to Asia People: We want jobs! Production: Opens a new factory in the USA People: We don’t want to work that much! Production: increases pay, which increases product cost People: this is too expensive. Can we buy from overseas cheaply instead? Production: Closes USA factory, moves back to Asia. People: we want jobs…

>> It’s like: That's cute, but not what actually happened. It started with: Company: We want more profit Production: Moved to Asia Other Companies: We can't compete any more Other Production: Moved to Asia Companies: Oh crap, we need production back in the US (for various reasons) Production: Oh shit that's right, we moved because it cost less with no labor or environmental protections and we could work the shit out…

In most markets, profit is not elastic, costs are. Meaning that sooner or later the savings will get to the end customer.

Don’t believe me? See what changed during the last two decades of globalization, product cost and availability or profit margins.

Re: TSMC’s Arizona Culture Clash

#185

Post by breezeTrowel »

phkahler wrote: post #175
neonihil wrote: post #137

It’s like: People: We want stuff cheaply, immediately and in immense volume! Production: Moves to Asia People: We want jobs! Production: Opens a new factory in the USA People: We don’t want to work that much! Production: increases pay, which increases product cost People: this is too expensive. Can we buy from overseas cheaply instead? Production: Closes USA factory, moves back to Asia. People: we want jobs…

>> It’s like: That's cute, but not what actually happened. It started with: Company: We want more profit Production: Moved to Asia Other Companies: We can't compete any more Other Production: Moved to Asia Companies: Oh crap, we need production back in the US (for various reasons) Production: Oh shit that's right, we moved because it cost less with no labor or environmental protections and we could work the shit out…

Going by the article, it seems a large part of the "culture clash" is TSMC's insistence on three hours of meetings each day and using outdated software that was designed back in 1987(!). While workers in Taiwan used to work 12 hour days, time worked is not a good indicator of productivity and I'm willing to bet that TSMC's massive profitability meant there wasn't much incentive to make the work process more efficient.

Honestly, I'm surprised so much hands-on work is needed when we're talking about a semiconductor company. One would think a lot of the fine-tuning work, which seems to be what requires a lot of the labor, could be easily automated with current technology.

Re: TSMC’s Arizona Culture Clash

#186

Post by CivBase »

contidrift wrote: post #182
CivBase wrote: post #178

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Where do those profits go? Presumably TSMC doesn't just sit on it. Surely they either invest it back into their business to stay competitive or deal it out as compensation.

I thought profits meant "the amount of income that remains after accounting for all expenses, debts, additional income streams, and operating costs."

Investments and bonuses are not part of any of those categories. Profits don't just get dumped into a Scrooge McDuck-esque money pool. Businesses obviously keep some money on hand, but it doesn't benefit anyone involved to have the money sit there forever. Profits are eventually used to fund expansions, acquisitions, improvements, charitable donations, rewards, etc.

Re: TSMC’s Arizona Culture Clash

#187

Post by jmpman »

I’ve known many Intel process engineers who’ve worked 80 hour weeks for years on end. This 48 hour TSMC demand would be a relief. Unfortunately, while TSMC moved to AZ, the moved to the other side of Phoenix from the existing Fabs. An Intel engineer isn’t going to just wake up one day and decide to change jobs to TSMC. They’re an hour and a half away from each other during the morning commute. So now, the engineer needs to sell their house, move their kids to a different school. Ridiculous. It’s going to be a rare Intel engineer that’s willing to make that jump. They’re going to get the engineers who are running away from Intel, not the good ones.

Re: TSMC’s Arizona Culture Clash

#188

Post by rdtwo »

scarab92 wrote: post #125
lotsofpulp wrote: post #118

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I am hearing that employers in the US are no longer able to negotiate the low pay per hours of work, often at undesirable times of the day and week and year, that they used to be able to demand. The type of work described in the article has a reputation of low pay per hour and being undesirable. > TSMC will have to change to an eight-hour work day five days a week.” Is this US society breaking down and American peopl…

This is what happens when the US tries to compete with Asia on manufacturing in a free market. These are people who want that job to exist, but are unwilling to work for the pay and conditions necessary for that job to exist.

The us does not offer competitive infrastructure to allow for those kind of job conditions. Working 10-12 hours means you need either good super reliable child care or a spouse that does not work. The us does not offer the same level of reliable public services as Taiwan does for example

Re: TSMC’s Arizona Culture Clash

#189

Post by zenron »

scarab92 wrote: post #125
lotsofpulp wrote: post #118

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I am hearing that employers in the US are no longer able to negotiate the low pay per hours of work, often at undesirable times of the day and week and year, that they used to be able to demand. The type of work described in the article has a reputation of low pay per hour and being undesirable. > TSMC will have to change to an eight-hour work day five days a week.” Is this US society breaking down and American peopl…

This is what happens when the US tries to compete with Asia on manufacturing in a free market. These are people who want that job to exist, but are unwilling to work for the pay and conditions necessary for that job to exist.

> This is what happens when the US tries to compete with Asia on manufacturing in a free market.

Does you definition of free market come from the "you'll work as much as I need you to if you want to eat" camp or the "if you want me to work bad enough, you'll pay me what I ask and negotiate the hours I am willing to work for you" camp?

Re: TSMC’s Arizona Culture Clash

#190

Post by CivBase »

defterGoose wrote: post #179
CivBase wrote: post #178

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Where do those profits go? Presumably TSMC doesn't just sit on it. Surely they either invest it back into their business to stay competitive or deal it out as compensation.

That's a very charitable view of capitalism-driven wealth concentration.

How so? The rich don't benefit from profits being tied up in a business account. If they want that money, they either have to receive it as immediate compensation or invest it in hopes of receiving even greater compensation in the future.
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