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TSMC’s Arizona Culture Clash

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Re: TSMC’s Arizona Culture Clash

#151

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I am hearing that employers in the US are no longer able to negotiate the low pay per hours of work, often at undesirable times of the day and week and year, that they used to be able to demand. The type of work described in the article has a reputation of low pay per hour and being undesirable. > TSMC will have to change to an eight-hour work day five days a week.” Is this US society breaking down and American peopl…

This is what happens when the US tries to compete with Asia on manufacturing in a free market. These are people who want that job to exist, but are unwilling to work for the pay and conditions necessary for that job to exist.

[deleted]

Re: TSMC’s Arizona Culture Clash

#152

So, they spoke with one anonymous staff member, and then sourced, wait for it... Glassdoor. I'm not saying these claims are untrue or that they even seem untrue, but it's still squeezing an article out of... not a whole lot. Glassdoor doesn't have a reputation (in my circles) for "balanced opinions".

This is modern outrage journalism in a nutshell.

Re: TSMC’s Arizona Culture Clash

#153

So, the fab isn't opened at all -- this is speculation. Intel has many fabs, texas instruments has many fabs, etc There wont be an issue here. IMO this reads more like a hit piece or something indicating that they want to back out of the Arizona deal or get more money. It's not really clear.

I agree that it reads like a hit piece and leads the reader to believe that it's already a disaster there. Is it possible that Intel is so worried about the talent vacuum that they'd pay someone to write this kind of story?

It is entirely possible that the article was commissioned by the competition. This sort of thing is cheap and done all the time.

Re: TSMC’s Arizona Culture Clash

#154
post #95

None of this makes sense. 1. Long shifts are normal for fab operators in the U.S., eg Intel. 2. Certain engineers are always on call if an emergency happens, also true at Intel. 3. Samsung, not exactly the “live slow and enjoy life” type of culture as an employer operates fabs just fine in the U.S.

Many moons ago I used to work inside a samsung fab. At no point was I ever feeling a sense of outrage regarding having a literal 80s-style pager strapped to my body 24/7/365. A big part of why this didnt bother me was the scale/impact of what I was doing - I was responsible for the primary business interface used across the entire factory floor. Once you see a modern fab with your own eyes, it will change you in a de…

>Once you see a modern fab with your own eyes, it will change you in a deep way. I felt a sense of compassion for this incredibly complex and valuable thing that humanity is just barely able to scrape together. Nothing you see in media can prepare you for the real thing.

I interned at Micron as an industrial engineer looking at capacity and equipment purchases. I can very much relate to that. The whole summer was my mind being blown by the orders of magnitude across the board and it's somehow it's an economically viable process.

First, we take this giant silicon crystal taller than humans and cut it into wafers. Then we take these pure materials (like 99.99999% pure) and transfer a tiny big on to the wafers in a successive layering process. Oh no, the deposition process wasn't perfectly even across the whole wafer (because of annoying laws of physics), so we'll throw it into the chemical mechanical planarizarion process to skim off a tiny layer keep the internal mechanical stressed down. Add in other mechanical, etching, lithography, and measurement processes and it gets crazy.

Wafers go through hundreds of manufacturing steps depending entirely on purpose, and with each step there's a possibility of messing up part or all of the wafer.

99% yield on a per-machine basis is sub-par in most manufacturing environments, but achieving that would be devastating in semiconductors. For sake of demonstration:

0.99^100{manufacturing steps} = 36.6% total process yield.

0.995^200 = 36.6% total process yield.

0.9975^400 = 36.7% total process yield.

Each additional 9 on yield is really expensive to add.

In school we talked about 1/1000th of an inch being kinda tight to hold on a CNC mill, with 1/10,000th needing a lot more specialized processing and time. Suddenly I was hearing about nanometer thick layers with tolerances measured in angstroms.

And the capital expenditure was nuts! 6-figures hardly gets you anything in a fab, it's really in the 7-8 figure range where you see most of your equipment landing. That will be old but still viable equipment in a few years.

Somehow depreciating all that equipment designed to make chips sold at pennies to dollars each is profitable.

As far as I'm concerned, it's black magic and truly an incredible achievement for humanity.

Re: TSMC’s Arizona Culture Clash

#155
post #107
post #95

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Many moons ago I used to work inside a samsung fab. At no point was I ever feeling a sense of outrage regarding having a literal 80s-style pager strapped to my body 24/7/365. A big part of why this didnt bother me was the scale/impact of what I was doing - I was responsible for the primary business interface used across the entire factory floor. Once you see a modern fab with your own eyes, it will change you in a de…

Sounds like you did eventually leave it. You communicated to me why you wanted to work there very well. What led you to leave?

I wanted to get deeper into software development and better understand how to design new complex systems.

Working in the US for a Korean megacorp, who rightfully demanded heavy standardization of manufacturing processes, meant I had basically zero latitude on this sort of stuff. I did manage to get approval for 1 minor development project which was ported back to Korea.

I still consider going back to SAS. I departed on amicable terms. The amount of impact I could bring with my skills today would probably open some additional doors. Working with stuff like Blazor in 2022 sometimes has me thinking about ways I could revamp that factory UX and solve problems that were impossible to solve before.

Re: TSMC’s Arizona Culture Clash

#156
post #148

It’s like: People: We want stuff cheaply, immediately and in immense volume! Production: Moves to Asia People: We want jobs! Production: Opens a new factory in the USA People: We don’t want to work that much! Production: increases pay, which increases product cost People: this is too expensive. Can we buy from overseas cheaply instead? Production: Closes USA factory, moves back to Asia. People: we want jobs…

One factor you are missing in that analysis: TSMC is very profitable—about $5 billion per quarter. Better working conditions don't have to mean more expensive products; it could instead mean reduced profits. https://focustaiwan.tw/business/202110140010

does that profit take into account the cost of building new fabs?

Re: TSMC’s Arizona Culture Clash

#157
post #95

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Many moons ago I used to work inside a samsung fab. At no point was I ever feeling a sense of outrage regarding having a literal 80s-style pager strapped to my body 24/7/365. A big part of why this didnt bother me was the scale/impact of what I was doing - I was responsible for the primary business interface used across the entire factory floor. Once you see a modern fab with your own eyes, it will change you in a de…

> Once you see a modern fab with your own eyes, it will change you in a deep way. Nothing you see in media can prepare you for the real thing. While working for Samsung Austin Semiconductor in 2013, I needed to travel to Korea for a month as part of our work on a global supply chain software project. IIRC, we were working at the semiconductor complex at Giehung. The fabs there are unbelievably enormous, much bigger t…

> I believe you can probably contact the public relations department at Samsung Austin Semiconductor and schedule a tour for your group.

IIRC they do regular tours for schools and other STEM groups. Last I badged out, there was an entire museum room dedicated to the history/tech/etc.

Re: TSMC’s Arizona Culture Clash

#158

It’s like: People: We want stuff cheaply, immediately and in immense volume! Production: Moves to Asia People: We want jobs! Production: Opens a new factory in the USA People: We don’t want to work that much! Production: increases pay, which increases product cost People: this is too expensive. Can we buy from overseas cheaply instead? Production: Closes USA factory, moves back to Asia. People: we want jobs…

People want to have their cake and eat it too.

Re: TSMC’s Arizona Culture Clash

#159

It’s like: People: We want stuff cheaply, immediately and in immense volume! Production: Moves to Asia People: We want jobs! Production: Opens a new factory in the USA People: We don’t want to work that much! Production: increases pay, which increases product cost People: this is too expensive. Can we buy from overseas cheaply instead? Production: Closes USA factory, moves back to Asia. People: we want jobs…

There might be a bit of that. 12 hour days are not unheard of in other parts of the country. Doctors in the ER can work even longer shifts (though obviously the stakes are incommensurate; still, I would contest the soundness of having tired doctors performing medical procedures).

But there's also the question of whether it is truly necessary. Will hiring more workers to cover more shifts really increase production costs that much?

If you're competing with cheap labor, possibly slave labor, then you have to look to other ways to push back, like fast tracking immigration of talent from places like Taiwan, imposing tariffs on imports from countries with cheap labor, investing in automation to reduce production time and costs, etc.

Sometimes there isn't much you can do, but generally speaking, while private business is a good thing, it is also true that private business cannot contradict the common good. The idea that you can simply do whatever you want because you're private is simply nonsense.

Re: TSMC’s Arizona Culture Clash

#160
post #150

It’s like: People: We want stuff cheaply, immediately and in immense volume! Production: Moves to Asia People: We want jobs! Production: Opens a new factory in the USA People: We don’t want to work that much! Production: increases pay, which increases product cost People: this is too expensive. Can we buy from overseas cheaply instead? Production: Closes USA factory, moves back to Asia. People: we want jobs…

"People" in each line are different groups of people. ...but the underlying lesson is correct - you cannot just listen to the loudest group. You have to enact policies that are based on an educated understanding of economics.

I suppose even if there were different groups (say, one free trade group, another protectionist group), the people individually could have coherent opinions. It would then go wrong when the elected representatives try to pander to both groups simultaneously.
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