The New Apple Advantage • Hacker News Board

Re: The New Apple Advantage

#61

Post by wysiwtf » Sat, Sep 10, 2011, 3:10 AM UTC

jellicle wrote: post #53

What I grasp from this is that John Gruber and Peter Bright are just too dim to understand basic online stores. This qualifies for mockery from Gruber/Bright: > "Everyday Computing" But this is good understandable product description: > "The ultimate everyday notebook" (that second one is Apple's marketing copy for the Macbook Air). The low-end Macbook Air is $999 in Canada. Let's compare. I just priced a Lenovo X220…

Are you sure that X220 is similar enough to an Air, it doesn't look like an air and the design specs are quite bulkier:

MacBook Air 11 inch: Height: .68 Weight: 2.38

MacBook Air 13 inch: Height: .68 Weight: 2.96

X220 12 inch: Height: 1.25 Weight: 3.6

I don't think it matters that you spec'ed it out to be slightly faster, I bet many of the people who want an Air-like notebook want the thinnest, cleanest, lightest notebook that can still perform very close to a traditional fat notebook, the X220 probably isn't what they're looking for.

Re: The New Apple Advantage

#62

Post by Anechoic » Sat, Sep 10, 2011, 3:16 AM UTC

socratic wrote: post #57

jellicle wrote: post #53

What I grasp from this is that John Gruber and Peter Bright are just too dim to understand basic online stores. This qualifies for mockery from Gruber/Bright: > "Everyday Computing" But this is good understandable product description: > "The ultimate everyday notebook" (that second one is Apple's marketing copy for the Macbook Air). The low-end Macbook Air is $999 in Canada. Let's compare. I just priced a Lenovo X220…

I tried to make this point below in a more subtle way, but you take on the issue more directly. Gruber's arguments never make any sense. Historically, he changes his opinions more or less based on what Apple is currently doing. He adds little value, and it seems clear that he's making a lot of money as a pro-Apple cheerleader from his blog posts. (Which is fine, don't get me wrong, but it doesn't make him a good news…

>Could we possibly, as a community, just agree that a blacklist of Gruber posts is good for us? How would we begin such a discussion?

This submittal is #1 on the front page with 110 net points. I think the community has spoken.

Re: The New Apple Advantage

#63

Post by timbre » Sat, Sep 10, 2011, 3:18 AM UTC

martingordon wrote: post #22

> It’s even worse if I just browse without searching. The options I get are just… meaningless. Yes, I want “Everyday Computing,” so I want an Inspiron. But hang on, I also want “Design & Performance,” so I want an XPS. Wait a second, I want “Thin & Powerful,” too. This is the crux of the problem with all of Apple's competitors, in the PC business and in mobile. Why choose when you can have everything? Apple's lineup…

What's so infuriating about the options though is that they're meaningless even to geeks. Choosing a WiFi chipset at least means something to someone. Among "Everyday Computing," "Design & Performance," and "Thin & Powerful," I think the only word that gives any information about how one category is different from the others is "Thin."

Their desktops are worse. Here are the choices (http://www.dell.com/us/business/p/desktops-n-workstations.as...):

OptiPlex

    Business-class performance and control

    Scalable and durable design

    Designed specifically for networked environments

Vostro

    Power for today and scalability for tomorrow

    Easy to configure

    Budget-friendly

Dell Precision

    On-the-go or in-the office graphics & analysis powerhouse

    ISV-certified reliability

    Built on a scalable IT platform

The only information-carrying word I see here is "Budget-friendly." It's hard for me to see how Dell benefits from being unclear like this, but it's equally hard to believe that they think this copy is clear.

Apple's categories are not just few, they are clear. They are specs. I choose between the 128GB model or the 256GB model, not between the "analysis powerhouse" and the model with "business-class performance."

Re: The New Apple Advantage

#64

Post by Steko » Sat, Sep 10, 2011, 3:19 AM UTC

wmf wrote: post #40

pkamb wrote: post #18

I break out this link whenever the topic of PC manufacturing comes up: http://www.lenovoblogs.com/insidethebox/2009/04/display-rati... Thinkpads are (were) well known for their 4:3 screens. People are downright fanatical about them, and continue to buy old T60s off craigslist rather than buy new from Lenovo. Tall screens are better for documents and spreadsheets. 4:3 displays instantly differentiate business -machine…

Also, Apple buys a lot more of that panel than any panel that Lenovo buys. If Lenovo ordered millions of 4:3 panels, they would suddenly become available.

I guess that's the difference we're talking about here:

PC makers' diverse offerings force them to buy components that are cheap while Apple buys whatever components they want but get them even cheaper due to scale.

The kicker is that at the same time Apple makes that component it's buying even more expensive for everyone else and they know everyone else is copying them.

Re: The New Apple Advantage

#65

Post by ebiester » Sat, Sep 10, 2011, 3:19 AM UTC

fjarlq wrote: post #23

nohat wrote: post #8

The problem with the article he quotes is that it is wrong about the price of the x220. The x220 with default specs on everything except the bluetooth, webcam, ips screen (much nicer than an air btw), 128 GB ssd, and most expensive wifi (includes wimax) is $1290.60 . The ars article claims $1999.

But that's a limited-time promotional discount. They are reporting the usual price. http://arstechnica.com/hardware/news/2011/09/ultrabook-intel...

I've never seen the x220 not on sale. Lenovo has these inflated prices that last for about 2 months when the system comes out. Then every week is a sale. Talk with a salesperson and you can usually even get a lower price.

I don't like the business model, but Lenovo thinks it works for them.

(FWIW: Thinkpad T420 owner, and I love it much more than my 13 inch MBP.)

Re: The New Apple Advantage

#66

Post by dasil003 » Sat, Sep 10, 2011, 3:19 AM UTC

whatusername wrote: post #51

CamperBob wrote: post #35

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not if you look at their balance sheets, it isn't. McDonalds is one hell of a highly optimized operation, and nobody in business would object to being compared to them. Meanwhile, Panera's food is probably less healthy if you actually look at the numbers.

Everyone can make a better/tastier/nicer hamburger than McDonalds. No-one can make a more profitable hamburger than McDonalds. That ties in pretty well to Tim Cook.

Most hamburgers are more profitable than McDonalds. The hard part is selling a billion of them.

Re: The New Apple Advantage

#67

Post by mgkimsal » Sat, Sep 10, 2011, 3:20 AM UTC

SandB0x wrote: post #27

I've ranted about this previously ( http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=1419896 ). Most manufacturers have vast and bewildering product lines. Treat yourself to the Asus line-up: http://www.asus.com/Notebooks/AllProducts/ Most manufacturers have half-hearted and short lived attempts at introducing premium lines or models (e.g. Dell's Adamo). Buying an expensive product only to have the manufacturer discontinue the li…

I ranted about this too recently here - Apple's biggest business advantage is the trust/faith people have in the brand to remain consistent, probably even moreso than innovative. People will always come up with new stuff - other pc manufacturers do it all the time. However, there's not a long term vision of consistency to the other manufacturers, possibly because they are, in fact manufacturers, not end to end designers, developers, manufacturers and retailers.

Buying something from Apple, you have a strong case that it'll be supported for at least a few years, the model likely won't go away entirely, and you'll be able to get good support from them via phone, mail or in-store. Other brands may offer some or all of those aspects, sometime, for some models, but few have a multi-year history of providing all of those consistently.

Apple's advantage is the decade of experience they have in building trust with consumers.

Re: The New Apple Advantage

#68

Post by socratic » Sat, Sep 10, 2011, 3:22 AM UTC

Anechoic wrote: post #62

socratic wrote: post #57

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I tried to make this point below in a more subtle way, but you take on the issue more directly. Gruber's arguments never make any sense. Historically, he changes his opinions more or less based on what Apple is currently doing. He adds little value, and it seems clear that he's making a lot of money as a pro-Apple cheerleader from his blog posts. (Which is fine, don't get me wrong, but it doesn't make him a good news…

>Could we possibly, as a community, just agree that a blacklist of Gruber posts is good for us? How would we begin such a discussion? This submittal is #1 on the front page with 110 net points. I think the community has spoken.

You seem to have missed an earlier part of my comment. Because HN requires very high karma thresholds before enabling downvotes, net points are an extremely asymmetric measure.

However, one possible solution would be to enable downvotes, but only on controversial posts such as Gruber's. That would enable both sides of the community to speak.

How would you feel about such a measure?

EDIT: Controversial might be defined objectively as the ratio of upvotes to flags, or similar. People regularly comment on the fact that they have flagged Gruber's posts, but I presume that moderators currently just ignore such flags because the content isn't offensive, against the rules, and so on. For that matter, it would be interesting to know how many flags are currently on this post.

Re: The New Apple Advantage

#69

Post by NaOH » Sat, Sep 10, 2011, 3:30 AM UTC

I understand why it wasn't addressed in Gruber's post, but the customer-facing points he made about online sites and how they compare to the Apple site could just as well have been extended to the retail presence of the various companies. The same design aspects which take place online are also present at the retail level.

Step into an Apple Store, and the product differentiation is clear and accessible. Step into a retailer of Windows computers (in the US), and it's just rows and rows of barely distinguishable machines. Yes, Apple does include a small display card of the basic specs near each machine, but their overall setup is one that encourages visitors to use the machines and evaluate them on-site to determine if a model is a fit. These design decisions extend to other aspects of the retail experiences, from the setting, the available staff, the sales experience, etc.

It's relatively easy to see how Apple uses vertical integration in things like its product lines and manufacturing. But they've managed to combine that with vertical design in nearly every place people interact with the company. That's hard to do but always impressive to experience.

Re: The New Apple Advantage

#70

Post by ugh » Sat, Sep 10, 2011, 3:34 AM UTC

socratic wrote: post #57

jellicle wrote: post #53

What I grasp from this is that John Gruber and Peter Bright are just too dim to understand basic online stores. This qualifies for mockery from Gruber/Bright: > "Everyday Computing" But this is good understandable product description: > "The ultimate everyday notebook" (that second one is Apple's marketing copy for the Macbook Air). The low-end Macbook Air is $999 in Canada. Let's compare. I just priced a Lenovo X220…

I tried to make this point below in a more subtle way, but you take on the issue more directly. Gruber's arguments never make any sense. Historically, he changes his opinions more or less based on what Apple is currently doing. He adds little value, and it seems clear that he's making a lot of money as a pro-Apple cheerleader from his blog posts. (Which is fine, don't get me wrong, but it doesn't make him a good news…

“Hey, I have no arguments but this fella obviously makes no sense so let’s just all agree and censor him, pretty please?”

Maybe that is a good idea. Contentless comments that only attack and are always too lazy to actually argue make submissions like these so damn frustrating. If he is so wrong it should be simple to destroy his arguments.