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TSMC’s Arizona Culture Clash

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Re: TSMC’s Arizona Culture Clash

#51

Post by rStar »

j_walter wrote: post #31
heleninboodler wrote: post #26

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> “That’s a lot of the work day. Some of the solution may be in software. Most of these meetings could be automated. The engineer who last worked with the equipment would record tool status and changes and make recommendations” to the next shift. ... since 1987. This process sounds like a liability to me. If you're having daily hours-long meetings for humans to communicate information to other humans, who then have t…

It sounds like inefficiency to those that don't understand the process. These engineers are working on equipment that costs $10M-150M each. Having a long meeting in person meeting to discuss ongoing issues is not a liability. A brand new engineer probably doesn't realize the value in having face to face communication. Also...they didn't say it hasn't been changed since 1987, it's just the same system (like saying I h…

No post body was provided.

Re: TSMC’s Arizona Culture Clash

#52

Post by deepnotderp »

j_walter wrote: post #20
lettergram wrote: post #2

So, the fab isn't opened at all -- this is speculation. Intel has many fabs, texas instruments has many fabs, etc There wont be an issue here. IMO this reads more like a hit piece or something indicating that they want to back out of the Arizona deal or get more money. It's not really clear.

It's not open, but many of the new engineers are currently training in Taiwan. The engineer in question is simply seeing what his TSMC counterparts are doing. The Taiwanese culture is very hard working and that is why TSMC is ahead of Intel and Samsung now. You are correct though, there won't be an issue because this hard work atmosphere will weed out the weak and breed the strong.

Given that Intel had undisputed process leadership until 10nm it seems that the "Taiwanese work culture advantage" works in mysterious ways.

Re: TSMC’s Arizona Culture Clash

#53

Post by imgabe »

deepnotderp wrote: post #17

None of this makes sense. 1. Long shifts are normal for fab operators in the U.S., eg Intel. 2. Certain engineers are always on call if an emergency happens, also true at Intel. 3. Samsung, not exactly the “live slow and enjoy life” type of culture as an employer operates fabs just fine in the U.S.

I'm also confused. It's not like the US doesn't have factories that run 24/7. I spent a summer working swing shifts 12 hours a day, 3 days on, 3 days off.

Re: TSMC’s Arizona Culture Clash

#54

Post by trompetenaccoun »

rjzzleep wrote: post #6

Very interesting. Yeah labour is cheap in Taiwan. Even highly qualified, specialized labour. That's why talent leaves to China, USA and Israel. But about the factory itself, American Factory was quite interesting[1]. Chinese company, but similar culture clash. It is interesting however that from what I have seen Europeans that wouldn't lift a finger on a weekend would expect Taiwanese to have results on Monday mornin…

Talent generally doesn't leave for China from Taiwan, conditions in China are even worse. The Taiwanese computer chip talent that worked in China were almost all working for Taiwanese firms. There are a lot of programs where they try to lure in foreigners who're ignorant about China with high wages, from what I see Taiwanese do not tend to fall for this for obvious reasons. In recent years there have been lots of less qualified folks leaving Taiwan though and China is one of the destinations. With China's rapidly growing economy there was a lot of opportunity there for basically anyone, you could make quite a bit of cash if you were hustling and stayed out of "trouble". But those years seem to be coming to an end.

Re: TSMC’s Arizona Culture Clash

#55

Post by heleninboodler »

j_walter wrote: post #31
heleninboodler wrote: post #26

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> “That’s a lot of the work day. Some of the solution may be in software. Most of these meetings could be automated. The engineer who last worked with the equipment would record tool status and changes and make recommendations” to the next shift. ... since 1987. This process sounds like a liability to me. If you're having daily hours-long meetings for humans to communicate information to other humans, who then have t…

It sounds like inefficiency to those that don't understand the process. These engineers are working on equipment that costs $10M-150M each. Having a long meeting in person meeting to discuss ongoing issues is not a liability. A brand new engineer probably doesn't realize the value in having face to face communication. Also...they didn't say it hasn't been changed since 1987, it's just the same system (like saying I h…

I mean, if you know this first-hand, then I concede to your knowledge, but the article does say the system has only had some "slight improvements" since 1987. I can easily see dismissing someone griping just because the UI is "old", but if they have feedback about how the system of communicating critical data across shifts can be automated so it doesn't take three hours, I'd be all ears. I wouldn't advocate doing away with that face-to-face, but a three hour handoff knowledge dump for a 12 hour shift seems excessive.

But you're right, I'm not familiar with the process. I'm relying on the testimony of that one complainy engineer.

Re: TSMC’s Arizona Culture Clash

#56

Post by mjevans »

mlindner wrote: post #40
deepnotderp wrote: post #17

None of this makes sense. 1. Long shifts are normal for fab operators in the U.S., eg Intel. 2. Certain engineers are always on call if an emergency happens, also true at Intel. 3. Samsung, not exactly the “live slow and enjoy life” type of culture as an employer operates fabs just fine in the U.S.

Intel has people work "more than 12-hour workdays" often?

Probably yes. Major manufacturing sites are often CONTINUOUSLY (24/365.25+) staffed with "12 hour" shifts that include overlap via a lunch and normal breaks making those at least 13 hours of on site time long. One body slot takes 4 people to fill that way, but that leaves zero slack for vacation, sick days, etc.

Re: TSMC’s Arizona Culture Clash

#57

Post by Bahamut »

j_walter wrote: post #20
lettergram wrote: post #2

So, the fab isn't opened at all -- this is speculation. Intel has many fabs, texas instruments has many fabs, etc There wont be an issue here. IMO this reads more like a hit piece or something indicating that they want to back out of the Arizona deal or get more money. It's not really clear.

It's not open, but many of the new engineers are currently training in Taiwan. The engineer in question is simply seeing what his TSMC counterparts are doing. The Taiwanese culture is very hard working and that is why TSMC is ahead of Intel and Samsung now. You are correct though, there won't be an issue because this hard work atmosphere will weed out the weak and breed the strong.

Samsung (and Korean companies in general) isn't exactly known for work-life balance either (source: uncle was an exec and a sibling was a senior engineer there).

Re: TSMC’s Arizona Culture Clash

#58

Post by anonAndOn »

random12345678 wrote: post #23
rjzzleep wrote: post #6

Very interesting. Yeah labour is cheap in Taiwan. Even highly qualified, specialized labour. That's why talent leaves to China, USA and Israel. But about the factory itself, American Factory was quite interesting[1]. Chinese company, but similar culture clash. It is interesting however that from what I have seen Europeans that wouldn't lift a finger on a weekend would expect Taiwanese to have results on Monday mornin…

The level of entitlement from Westerners is unreal. "You can't have your cake and eat it too"

What's the point of a cake if they can't eat it?

Re: TSMC’s Arizona Culture Clash

#59

Post by walterbell »

j_walter wrote: post #31
heleninboodler wrote: post #26

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> “That’s a lot of the work day. Some of the solution may be in software. Most of these meetings could be automated. The engineer who last worked with the equipment would record tool status and changes and make recommendations” to the next shift. ... since 1987. This process sounds like a liability to me. If you're having daily hours-long meetings for humans to communicate information to other humans, who then have t…

It sounds like inefficiency to those that don't understand the process. These engineers are working on equipment that costs $10M-150M each. Having a long meeting in person meeting to discuss ongoing issues is not a liability. A brand new engineer probably doesn't realize the value in having face to face communication. Also...they didn't say it hasn't been changed since 1987, it's just the same system (like saying I h…

Thanks for your comments based on experience/reality!
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