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No Way to Grow Up

nytimes.com

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Re: No Way to Grow Up

#311

Post by another_story »

zepto wrote: post #116
sg47 wrote: post #107

Gun violence in schools has increased so we should be sending children to school? There were school shootings before the pandemic and there are school shootings now. Nothing has been done to address either the mental health issues or access to guns.

What has this got to do with covid? Also, guns have been more easily available in the past than they are now. Access to guns isn’t causing the uptick in school shootings. If we knew what was causing it, perhaps we could address the problem.

I mean, if there were no access to guns it would probably take care of the problem. We'd probably end up with stabbings or bombings, though. My opinion is that American culture has a problem, guns or no guns. Lack of social cohesion, and a government that is more interested in increasing military budgets than finding ways to help its cash strapped population.

Re: No Way to Grow Up

#312

Post by civilized »

woodruffw wrote: post #275
civilized wrote: post #170

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I did not pivot. And to anyone reading my post, it should be so obvious that I did not pivot that your claim that I did verges on flatly dishonest. We knew COVID was not dangerous to children by early summer 2020. The article says this and the article is correct. I simply and plainly repeated this. It was never the case that anyone who was paying attention believed school closures might be the only thing standing bet…

> It was never the case that anyone who was paying attention believed school closures might be the only thing standing between COVID and mass death of children. That did not happen. It did not happen. It never happened. This is the aforementioned pivot. Nobody made this claim. The claim is that, early in the pandemic, unknowns about the dangers of COVID to children were one among many sufficient conditions for closin…

Putting away the continued nonsense about subtle pivots - it's not even the same claimed pivot, and I explained from my very first sentence that the early uncertainty could make closing schools understandable, if only for a couple months - it is extremely untrue that the other conditions were widely considered sufficient.

That's why TFA was written. Tons of people still deeply disagree with this risk calculus.

Re: No Way to Grow Up

#313

Post by khazhoux »

shmel wrote: post #233
yupper32 wrote: post #221

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yeah see this is why we can't have a real conversation about this. Every time I bring up this topic I'm bombarded with "ThEy'Re tAkInG YoUr FreEdOm!!" and "VaCcInEs DoN'T EvEn WorK" type people. I'm not part of that group.

I didn't say they don't work. They clearly work to significantly reduce deaths and hospitalizations. I totally agree on this. But they didn't stop the spread anywhere in the world. If you want to paint me with your stereotypes, go ahead.

In fairness, you are using the stereotypical language of anti-science vaccine deniers: "Non-compliance", "Take back your freedom."

Re: No Way to Grow Up

#314

Post by yupper32 »

fundad wrote: post #288
yupper32 wrote: post #99

Honest question: At what point do we give up? I'm in the Bay Area and it'll be coming up on 2 years soon of what basically amounts to a social shut down. -- Many social groups are just not getting together anymore, including most of mine. -- Concerts, sporting events, parties of most sizes, crowded bars/clubs just seem off the table at this point. -- Masks for the majority of it, which makes gym going and working out…

I know it's intimidating to go places alone and try to make friends there, it's what a lot of us have had to do any time we moved away from our social groups.

Finding a new group of friends who disregard health experts isn't exactly a great long-term plan.

It's amazing that everyone's responses are basically, "the answer is simple! we just completely ignore the experts! we've been doing it all along!"

I'm wondering when even the experts start saying "Damn this isn't worth it". What year of masking, remote learning, social distancing, etc. do they start to give up too? 3 years? 4 years?

I got hints of it reading some doctors who have been hardened proponents of masks, vaccine mandates, etc. over the holidays where they were basically like "yeah the holidays are going to be a shit show but I'm still going to see family, even if it's not a good idea". Paraphrasing of course.

Re: No Way to Grow Up

#315

Post by jayd16 »

toolz wrote: post #308
kelseyfrog wrote: post #267

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It doesn't matter how. It matters when.

No, it doesn't matter when, a parent dying when a kid is 10 is no different than when the kid is 11. Let's not pretend people are avoiding covid for multiple years here, because statistically they aren't.

Mortality rates are creeping down and new therapeutics are coming in, though.

Re: No Way to Grow Up

#316

Post by orangecat »

quadrifoliate wrote: post #280
ianbicking wrote: post #239

I'd love to see an emotionless cost-benefit analysis of different approaches to handling schools in the pandemic. I suspect the cost of closed schools far exceeds what we intuitively think, since it's not just the educational loss now, it's the cost of future mitigations due to the problems we're causing, and a large cost of lost productivity by parents. How many person-hours of lost productivity is there for each da…

> How many person-hours of lost productivity is there for each day a classroom is closed? At least a hundred per classroom, more than a thousand for each day a school is closed. I think I must have missed the point at which classrooms took on a responsibility for parental productivity? If so, does parental productivity also fall drastically during summer when schools have holidays? Stresses by the pandemic itself hav…

I think I must have missed the point at which classrooms took on a responsibility for parental productivity?

Because child care has long been part of the value proposition of public schools. It's amusing how "you shouldn't have had kids if one parent wasn't willing to stay at home full time" is now something that the far left and far right agree on.

Re: No Way to Grow Up

#317

Post by nostrademons »

jdminhbg wrote: post #202
btown wrote: post #186

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The article actually says it's 233% increase in chance of death for people younger than 65, which is even scarier: > For people younger than 65 who were hospitalized with COVID-19, the risk of death in the 12 months after the infection was 233% higher than it was for people who did not have the disease, results published in the journal Frontiers in Medicine have shown. https://www.frontiersin.org/articles/10.3389/fme…

This is comparing the risk of death for people who are hospitalized to the risk for their age group, which is missing the major confounding factor that those who are hospitalized for Covid (especially in younger cohorts) are very disproportionately sick (from diabetes, obesity, immune issues from transplants, etc).

From the linked article:

"The 12-month risk of mortality was assessed in unadjusted Cox regressions and those adjusted for age, sex, race and comorbidities."

They controlled for comorbidities.

Re: No Way to Grow Up

#318

Post by tandymodel100 »

I sympathize with the author but I find many of these arguments lack a middle ground for trade offs that ultimately neglect the fact that the situation today is vastly different from the situation in march 2020. We have pharmaceutical interventions and know how to treat and prevent COVID. There’s no excuse for 99.9% of schools to go to near normal or at minimum be in person.

Re: No Way to Grow Up

#319

Post by DennisP »

nsainsbury wrote: post #106
DennisP wrote: post #48

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Because people are experiencing long-term effects besides death.

Actually, a recent meta-analysis found that when you actually add a control group, most of the "long COVID" symptoms disappear. Higher quality studies were was associated with lower prevalence of almost all symptoms. "Long COVID" appears to be almost entirely an artifact of bad science (and bad science reporting) See https://twitter.com/ShamezLadhani/status/1472622893154639876 and https://www.journalofinfection.com/a…

Glad to see that. Appears to be just for children, do you know of similar studies on adults?

Re: No Way to Grow Up

#320

Post by crawfordcomeaux »

gotstad wrote: post #258
crawfordcomeaux wrote: post #253

Earlier quoted context omitted.

First, let's learn to account for emotional, mental, spiritual costs. Then we can talk about the productivity hit.

While those are important costs to consider, there is no way people will agree on how to measure such things in comparable terms.

So don't bother trying?!

Nope. That just means it's a moonshot. Besides I don't agree with current education approaches, so why pedestal one over the other.

Also, there ARE metrics of subjective wellbeing and we can use them. There's a culture of denial and aversion to real challenges that leads to people to escape it through numbers and dollars. What you're saying sounds like what that culture says.

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