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Real Problems That Web3 Solves, Part 1

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Re: Real Problems That Web3 Solves, Part 1

#201

Post by alkonaut »

Ok that’s one try. And there were… literally zero reasons in the article for actually using blockchains or cryptocurrency.

I believe this guy is being intellectually honest (which is a feeling I don’t get often in this space) but I don’t think he’s capable of asking the right questions.

The question that should be asked is what is a problem we (humans) have that is not only solved by this new tech, but can’t in any way even by bending over backwards be solved with some other technology?

Re: Real Problems That Web3 Solves, Part 1

#202

Post by rizkeyz »

mattlondon wrote: post #67

> We need some way of saying “who we are” on the internet in a consistent manner. That way we can communicate with others in a verified way and associate with digital data that we own. We also often need that data to be interoperable between different web properties. Do we really need this? Do we really want to permanently tie identity across websites like this? I find this initial "need"/justification/requirement qu…

Exactly, we do not need it. If it weren't for job negotiations I'd be making all my contributions on the net masked.

Re: Real Problems That Web3 Solves, Part 1

#203

Post by danielmarkbruce »

serverholic wrote: post #154
roca wrote: post #138

I'm open to the idea that there are real problems that are best solved by PoW/PoS blockchains and smart contracts, so I was hoping this article would reveal one. It doesn't. As mentioned elsewhere, Persona was already a perfectly good technical solution to this, years ago. It failed for various reasons, none of which would be addressed by blockchains/smart contracts. Likewise, the problem of "conveniently and securel…

Have you actually used a web3 website? Once you have your wallet setup it's the most seamless login experience I've ever had. Also, I find it funny whenever someone says something like "web3 doesn't actually solve anything that hasn't been solved by other technologies like X". Then why isn't anyone using X? Why is nobody using Persona or Webauthn despite being "superior"?

Lots of people use and used X, for various X. Various auth only companies exist, like Okta. They don't care for your "data", they are just trying to log you in. Same for Ping, Oracle Identity (or whatever they are called these days), Amazon etc. Then there are services where you use a physical card for auth (many federal government jobs require people to auth using a card which basically just holds keys). There are many auth services with waaaaay more users than any web3 wallet.

The statement that web3 doesn't solve anything which hasn't already been solved wrt authentication... is about as close to a true statement as one can make.

Re: Real Problems That Web3 Solves, Part 1

#204

Post by imgabe »

jdlshore wrote: post #11

Several years ago, Mozilla/Firefox created "Persona," which was an open-source federated identity system that provided all the benefits described here. The idea was that it would eventually be built into browsers. I used it on a commercial site myself for many years. It failed to gain traction, and Mozilla eventually pulled the plug. Persona had many advantages over the Web3 vision described in this article. It was p…

I like Mozilla and Firefox is my default browser, but clearly that was doomed. Google is never going to be OK with Mozilla owning the identity system. Neither would Facebook, or Apple or anyone else. They all have their system for “just use us as the login to every service!” And the only result is that there are 50[1] different “universal” login options for every site.

[1] ok most sites limit it to 2-3 options, but which 2-3 is up in the air.

Re: Real Problems That Web3 Solves, Part 1

#205

Post by candiddevmike »

betwixthewires wrote: post #178
mattlondon wrote: post #89

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So if you are not going to go whole-hog and have one true identity for everything, why bother using anything apart from an email address? The argument seems to be that consistency allows you to prove ownership and re-use all of your content etc across the web by tying everything back to one verified identity. If you are having different identities on different sites then that benefit disappears, and I fail to see how…

Well I thought I explained it effectively, but there are numerous scenarios where you'd want to use the same identity across multiple services, cross sharing of data, provable rights, etc. But that doesn't mean you're limited to one, or that you want to use it for every service you use. The benefit doesn't disappear, the benefit only applies when you want it. It isn't all or nothing.

You just described OAuth/OIDC.

Re: Real Problems That Web3 Solves, Part 1

#206

Post by candiddevmike »

erosenbe0 wrote: post #58

He isn't describing the true state of the world. Banks, brokerages, mortgage providers, and medical entities mostly don't use oauth2 and won't use this stuff either. The world is still old school. Grandpa dies and I go find the paper will. I get an affidavit from a lawyer and a death certificate with a seal from the state. I go into the bank with a bunch of papers and they figure out what to do. There isn't a chain o…

Whoever has the ability to generate that PK is the real centralized authority.

Re: Real Problems That Web3 Solves, Part 1

#207

Post by candiddevmike »

serverholic wrote: post #154
roca wrote: post #138

I'm open to the idea that there are real problems that are best solved by PoW/PoS blockchains and smart contracts, so I was hoping this article would reveal one. It doesn't. As mentioned elsewhere, Persona was already a perfectly good technical solution to this, years ago. It failed for various reasons, none of which would be addressed by blockchains/smart contracts. Likewise, the problem of "conveniently and securel…

Have you actually used a web3 website? Once you have your wallet setup it's the most seamless login experience I've ever had. Also, I find it funny whenever someone says something like "web3 doesn't actually solve anything that hasn't been solved by other technologies like X". Then why isn't anyone using X? Why is nobody using Persona or Webauthn despite being "superior"?

Have you actually used a OIDC website? Once you have your account setup it's the most seamless login experience I've ever had.

Sorry, there are plenty of standard ways to make logins seamless without a Blockchain.

Re: Real Problems That Web3 Solves, Part 1

#208

Post by roca »

serverholic wrote: post #154
roca wrote: post #138

I'm open to the idea that there are real problems that are best solved by PoW/PoS blockchains and smart contracts, so I was hoping this article would reveal one. It doesn't. As mentioned elsewhere, Persona was already a perfectly good technical solution to this, years ago. It failed for various reasons, none of which would be addressed by blockchains/smart contracts. Likewise, the problem of "conveniently and securel…

Have you actually used a web3 website? Once you have your wallet setup it's the most seamless login experience I've ever had. Also, I find it funny whenever someone says something like "web3 doesn't actually solve anything that hasn't been solved by other technologies like X". Then why isn't anyone using X? Why is nobody using Persona or Webauthn despite being "superior"?

I haven't used a Web3 site. How is it more seamless than Webauthn's "go to the site and have it verify my identity without me doing anything (using my plugged-in Yubikey plus the browser-stored user credentials)"?

Persona failed for various reasons. Big companies didn't want to offer Persona logins because they wanted to control the user relationship, especially the barrier to getting an account, and were unwilling to delegate that to arbitrary third parties. There was also a chicken-and-egg problem: not many sites accepted Persona logins, so not many people bothered to sign up to Persona, so not many sites bothered to accept Persona logins. This latter problem could have perhaps been solved if Mozilla had worked harder to integrate Persona into Firefox, but mistakes were made.

For Webauthn, AFAIK it's mainly an implementation issue on the server side. Maybe not enough people have the required secure tokens, on some platforms.

Obviously, blockchains and smart contracts don't help with any of the above issues.

Re: Real Problems That Web3 Solves, Part 1

#209

Post by fragmede »

bko wrote: post #175
superfrank wrote: post #71

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Despite these advantages, Persona failed. I don't see how a blockchain-based approach, with so many disadvantages compared to Persona, could possibly succeed outside of the blockchain enthusiast community. And, on a technical level, a federated approach seems innumerably simpler and less wasteful than a blockchain-based approach. Sometimes it's all about being in the right place, at the right time, with the right a…

> That being said, if (major if) auth through web3 did take off, I wouldn't be surprised if over time it slowly creeped back toward a solution that doesn't use blockchain since a non-blockchain solution would probably be simpler, cheaper, and faster. I don't think you necessarily need blockchain. Can't you just prove that you are who you say by signing something and sending it to the service? You can just use the pro…

As far as the technology goes, you could have the user GPG sign something and upload that attestation. Something about the UX of that leads me to believe that'll be a non-starter though.

Login/verification doesn't require a transaction though, so is relatively quick. Blockchain in this context can be thought of as a collection of (public) keys.

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