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ASML reports fire at its Berlin factory

reuters.com

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Re: ASML reports fire at its Berlin factory

#291

Post by Heliosmaster »

r00fus wrote: post #272
Heliosmaster wrote: post #266

Earlier quoted context omitted.

keep in mind that machines like those are so complex that you don't simply buy them and install them. It's more like getting custom-made artisanal goods: each machine has a "father/mother" from its 'conception' til delivery who treats it as their (work) baby. Then a special plane will fly the machine and a team of dedicated engineers will spend weeks in your fab doing install / validation. The process is long and com…

It almost sounds like there should be states funding creation of a competitor simply to prevent the "fire impacts entire global industry" kind of news we're seeing today.

a competitor won't be enough, the whole supply chain is made by companies which are single point of failure (the reason why europe can't afford to say "ASML only sell your machines to EU fabs" is that one of the key ASML supplies is US.. and without them no machines...).

Re: ASML reports fire at its Berlin factory

#292

Post by zogomoox »

throwoutway wrote: post #254
collegeburner wrote: post #246

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This definitely doesn't match how I heard some software is done there: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=18463181

That sounds like a train wreck waiting to happen. I’m amazed that hasn’t put an egg on their face. Are their customers complaining about issues? And how can the risk managers know so much about potential regressions? Are they a panel of former engineers?! So many questions

The customers do complain, but they only care about wafer yield and throughput. They will accept any dirty software hack or manual procedure to circumvent issues _now_.

Re: ASML reports fire at its Berlin factory

#293

Post by zogomoox »

amelius wrote: post #223
jokteur wrote: post #220

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I am currently beginning a PhD in physics (mathematical modeling, simulation on HPC) in Switzerland, and I am afraid that after my PhD, I won't find a job that really pleases me. These last years, I came under the impression that you currently can only find ML driven software engineering jobs (I am exagerating of course), and having done quite a bit of ML and software engineering, I now know that I don't want my futu…

This comment makes me wonder how much ML is used at ASML or if there is an growing trend ...

I recommend you check out the ASML / Brion campus in Silicon Valley.

Re: ASML reports fire at its Berlin factory

#294

Post by bllguo »

unethical_ban wrote: post #158
jhugo wrote: post #108

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Why do we rely on slave labor overseas for such basics as textiles when we could make it here? Calling it slave labour is a great sound bite but glosses over the wide variety in working conditions "overseas", and the fact that trade has vastly improved conditions in many such "overseas" countries. I have broadly the opposite view about supply chains and globalisation; the inter-reliance of countries and the trade i…

Yes, good counterpoint. And to the other poster, yes, the EU was apparently designed with this point explicitly in mind. However, the EU countries are on the same order of magnitude of wealth. Is there any point at which we say "it is wrong to remove wealth from my country, put a fraction of it into working conditions unthinkable in my country, and let the owners of the means of production pocket the rest"? Shouldn't…

pragmatic concerns aside, the US standards you hold so dear would not even be possible without being subsidized by the labor and suffering of those you criticize. Calling them ethical is quite the stretch

Re: ASML reports fire at its Berlin factory

#295

Post by CookiesNCream23 »

amelius wrote: post #223
jokteur wrote: post #220

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I am currently beginning a PhD in physics (mathematical modeling, simulation on HPC) in Switzerland, and I am afraid that after my PhD, I won't find a job that really pleases me. These last years, I came under the impression that you currently can only find ML driven software engineering jobs (I am exagerating of course), and having done quite a bit of ML and software engineering, I now know that I don't want my futu…

This comment makes me wonder how much ML is used at ASML or if there is an growing trend ...

Can’t tell you the exact details but you should be able to find details from the patents, papers, and tech talks from ASML.

Re: ASML reports fire at its Berlin factory

#296

Post by zogomoox »

testtesttestte wrote: post #274
varispeed wrote: post #227

Earlier quoted context omitted.

After working at ASML would you get enough knowledge to start competing company? Or is the job so protected with NDAs that basically you wouldn't be able to translate or use the gained knowledge anywhere else? I am thinking, for example, when you realise the working conditions are not great or you are paid not enough, do you have any leverage? If ASML has no competition, then do you have any negotiating power?

Some people tried it and got sued for patent infringement (ASML vs XTAL)[1]. ASML patents all EUV-related technology, so you'd have to come up with a brand new way of generating EUV plasma at high energies at constant rate. Even ASML had to buy an American company Cymer to get a working prototype. Then, because EUV radiation doesn't pass through air or standard lenses, you'd have to come up with another optic column…

EUV and higher energy photons are difficult beasts, I would put my money on electrons next, so perhaps the electron microscope companies hold the interesting patents there.

Re: ASML reports fire at its Berlin factory

#297

Post by [deleted] »

kragen wrote: post #55
throwawaylinux wrote: post #24

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Well EUV alone cost many billions of dollars to develop. It's also not clear that China is particularly good at leading high tech innovation. If you just look at the dollars and cents, they should be inventing new technology at a similar rate as the US. Doesn't seem like they're pulling their weight.

This smear could not be further from the truth. China has singlehandedly (to the extent that a billion people can be considered a "single hand") dropped the cost of solar energy from five times as expensive as fossil fuels to half as expensive as fossil fuels in only ten years, an innovation that will probably stop global warming and usher in an unprecedented age of energy abundance starting about eight years from no…

[deleted]

Re: ASML reports fire at its Berlin factory

#298

Post by CookiesNCream23 »

varispeed wrote: post #227
CookiesNCream23 wrote: post #180

I work in the industry and have worked in a fab. Here is some insight. We are taught that fabs are not treated as factories but as hazardous chemical storage plants. On top of that, we work with high pressure and high power systems. Fires have accounted for the most damage to fabs over the years; however, this situation is different. The site is not a fab, it is a ASML manufacturing plant. This plant does not produce…

After working at ASML would you get enough knowledge to start competing company? Or is the job so protected with NDAs that basically you wouldn't be able to translate or use the gained knowledge anywhere else? I am thinking, for example, when you realise the working conditions are not great or you are paid not enough, do you have any leverage? If ASML has no competition, then do you have any negotiating power?

Not a chance. The machines are so complex that nobody knows the whole thing. People dedicate their lives to one small component.

What I value is the opportunity to be see technology and scale of this caliber.

Re: ASML reports fire at its Berlin factory

#299

Post by tinus_hn »

KarlKemp wrote: post #288
cromka wrote: post #284

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I see. Sounds like the plan backfired /s

The intend was to reduce pressure on hospitals. That worked very well, with emergency room visits dropping 85 % compared to the year before, even more to pre-Covid New Year's Eves

A drop indeed, a drop in a bucket. In total fireworks resulted in about 400 emergency room visits in 2019-2020 on a population of 17 million.

So this went from about 5 visits per emergency location per year to about 2. Totally and completely insignificant.

Re: ASML reports fire at its Berlin factory

#300

Post by User23 »

thaumasiotes wrote: post #179
User23 wrote: post #58

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Elemental fluorine is nasty toxic, but it doesn’t really pollute the environment because it’s too busy oxidizing the first thing it finds and forming a never gonna let you go bond.

Isn't it happy to form hydrogen fluoride when it meets something with hydrogen in it? If that was a never-gonna-let-you-go bond, HF would be a much less nasty substance.

There are certainly plenty of nasty fluorine compounds, but they too are quite reactive and quickly bind to something[1].

On a tangent from that link: “Fluorine is a naturally-occurring, pale yellow-green gas with a sharp odor.” What lunatic went sniffing fluorine gas and how did he have any sense of smell after doing so?

[1] https://www.atsdr.cdc.gov/toxfaqs/tfacts11.pdf

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