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Share of Income Gains by Quintile - Great Depression til Now

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Re: Share of Income Gains by Quintile - Great Depression til Now

#111
post #54

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Repost of something I wrote the other day that I think is relevant: My very average house today is a huge luxury compared to the very average house my grandparents bought in the 60s. I have a cable bill, an iPhone bill, an internet bill, a netflix bill, and too many various SaaS subscriptions. My grandparents had none of those. I also have a much higher power bill to pay for all my consumer electronics and air condit…

You wrongly equate material possessions with happiness. I'd easily go back to a 60s quality lifestyle if my wife didn't have to work and I only had to work 40 hours a week to own a nice house. In the 60s they had most of the same electric appliances that we have today, save the microwave oven, personal computer, and the cellphone. I'd bet that eating food that can't be heated in a microwave is probably more healthy f…

Why don't you go back to a 60s lifestyle? It is definitely possible; plenty of people live low impact non material focussed lives.

My point is that there is a reason that it takes 2 incomes to support a household now--All the extra stuff we have. I was refuting the people who keep asking why we have to work so hard just to have a normal life.

Re: Share of Income Gains by Quintile - Great Depression til Now

#112
post #21

How is productivity measured? GDP / (Hours Worked * Salary) = Productivity?

Salary does not factor into the computation. The pure definition is GDP / Hours worked, though as with all statistics, there may be proxy variables and other subtleties involved.

Re: Share of Income Gains by Quintile - Great Depression til Now

#113
post #36

Technological progress should cause increasing economic inequality, because the bottom end of the scale is firmly anchored at zero (someone taking a vacation), while technology gives the top end ever more powerful levers. So the interesting question is not why economic inequality is increasing, but why for a few decades in the mid twentieth century the trend was reversed. There are probably several factors at work he…

The more interesting question for me is: why are the dividends of increasing productivity no longer being shared with employees?

because those employees did not produce the increase in productivity, technologists did.

The technologists and the entrenched oligopolists ate all of the surplus while the commoditized worker drones got nothing. Which is inline with free market theory. The wealth goes to the people who produce the wealth and the people who corner the market.

Re: Share of Income Gains by Quintile - Great Depression til Now

#114
post #8

What happened in the late 70s?

Reagan (1981-1989).

So by extension the current economic downturn is entirely Obama's fault then? Also, take a close look at the graph. Looks like things had stagnated in the early 70s, but the graph does it's best to hide that. Now off we go to partisan bickering about who was in control of congress blah blah... it's all BS.

It's silly for presidents to talk about the economy at all. It's just another way for politicians to take credit for something they aren't responsible for. Do you think Jobs and Woz started Apple because of Carter's economic policy? Do you think Microsoft succeeded because of Reagan?

Of course some companies rise and fall along with the political tides. I suspect that a close examination of these will show you bribes and favoritism. Companies that depend on a favorible political climate probably aren't adding to the economy at all.

Re: Share of Income Gains by Quintile - Great Depression til Now

#116
Short story of American inequality:

The economic growth since 1978 was, for the most part, produced by the efforts of 10% of the population. It's true. I'm a leftist and I must admit that. That's not to say that the other 90% aren't working hard and don't deserve to share in the gains-- they obviously do-- but those gains are coming from a small percentage of people. Many, many people work hard and deserve to have good lives for their contributions, but only a small percentage (about 10%) have the vision and creativity to push increases in productivity; most are adders, few are multipliers. (Many politicians are dividers, but that's another story.)

The gains since 1978 have also gone to about 10% of the population. Maybe less than 10%. Income gains are often offset by increased prices in the Unholy Trinity (housing, healthcare, education costs). Quality-of-life is also going down in most of the country, and where it is increasing, housing prices are absurd even now. Even people whose incomes appear to be growing may be back-sliding. 10% is generous, but let's go with that.

These 10%'s are not the same people. (Sorry Randists). There's an intersection, but it's only about 2-3%, or 20-30% of each. The first set are the creators of wealth; the second set are capturing it. Startup entrepreneurs are in the first set (and if lucky, can enter the second). Well-connected rich kids who get staffed in private equity firms at 24 and get to draw fees from economic activity regardless of success or failure (because they'll get promoted anyway) are in the second set.

Speaking as a member of first set, and merely on the outer fringe of the second, I'll just say this: no, the economic inequality in the U.S. is not desirable. Hard-line egalitarianism is ridiculous and impractical, but inequality has gone too far. We know this. The only reason the absurdity is tolerated is that 10-30% of the American population has insane social and religious views that impel them toward degenerate politics.

Anyone who has traveled within Latin American societies at all can see where we're heading, and it's not pretty: massive economic inequality, desperate rural poverty, and intractably corrupt, plutocratic governments.

I'll admit that what bothers me most about American equality is what drives the inequality. If it were reflective of differences in intelligence, the correlation (slight, but positive) between intelligence and empathy would be enough to impel this smart-and-rich elite to give back to the rest. At least, I hope that is the case. But that's not what we have. Increasingly, the inequality comes from inherited social connections (social capital, mostly implicitly generational) and, as it increases, the decision-making elite becomes more insular. That's what most elites become (generational social networks, not meritocracies) and that is how societies rot.

Re: Share of Income Gains by Quintile - Great Depression til Now

#117
post #36

Technological progress should cause increasing economic inequality, because the bottom end of the scale is firmly anchored at zero (someone taking a vacation), while technology gives the top end ever more powerful levers. So the interesting question is not why economic inequality is increasing, but why for a few decades in the mid twentieth century the trend was reversed. There are probably several factors at work he…

This really interesting, and somewhat depressing at the same time. I also remember the 'big-bang' in the UK, and the rise of the yuppie, "loads-a-money" types etc., which corresponded with the start of my working life.

A few years ago, I had some contact contracting in a large corp., and it was quite a feat to adjust to the life 'inside', where to be quite honest, life was a good bit slower, with a largely out-of-sight board, and dictates coming from on-high.

The take-away for me, is that not everyone is a Paul Graham, or a Zed Shaw, or a fogus, and that if you support the overall welfare of the country, then we should also support the population at large with reasonable roles that can support them with a living wage.

If we don't do this, and we haven't been, then the consequences of a giant unruly, unhappy and active underclass await.

Re: Share of Income Gains by Quintile - Great Depression til Now

#118
post #56
post #36

Technological progress should cause increasing economic inequality, because the bottom end of the scale is firmly anchored at zero (someone taking a vacation), while technology gives the top end ever more powerful levers. So the interesting question is not why economic inequality is increasing, but why for a few decades in the mid twentieth century the trend was reversed. There are probably several factors at work he…

I think this comment only acknowledges the existence of white collar jobs. You used to be able to pay for a house, a car, and the kids' college education with a factory job. While the wife stayed at home. Now, that scenario is eye-popping unbelievable. You're probably at wal-mart or starbucks if you don't have some sort of specialist skill or a connection into the white collar world. I'm not endorsing a particular so…

You're right that it's gotten harder for blue-collar people in the US. However, those jobs now belong to former subsistence farmers in developing nations, so it's quite different when you look at it from a global perspective.

Re: Share of Income Gains by Quintile - Great Depression til Now

#119
post #25
post #19

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes -- many families have shifted from single to dual-earner in order to maintain the same standard of living, so the household income charts really understate the decline in individual wages over this period.

That is not true. They vastly overstate the decline in wages, due to the rise of more single person households. See: http://www.google.com/publicdata/explore?ds=a7jenngfc4um7_&#... Individual wages have risen steadily since 1910, with no gaps. The household income chart is a misleading chart.

Note: That graph is personal income per capita, not personal income per worker or per hour worked.

Re: Share of Income Gains by Quintile - Great Depression til Now

#120
There's an assumption here that being richer just lets you buy more stuff and services.

Wealth, however, is power. While Bill Gates may be no more capable than me at driving faster on the 101, I definitely can't pay a lobbying firm 10 million dollars a year to make sure government policy serves my interests, or secretly pay to have lies told in support of my cause by dozens of seemingly credible people.

Some proportion of people are going to be unethical, and there are > 400 billionaires in the U.S.

The conveniently ignored problem with rising wealth inequality is the power imbalances it creates, and the strong reinforcing feedback loops it enables.

[edited to fix typo]

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