Ask HN: Why is today's Internet experience so user hostile? • Hacker News Board

Re: Ask HN: Why is today's Internet experience so user hostile?

#371

Post by lucumo » Tue, Jan 04, 2022, 8:03 AM UTC

sigmaprimus wrote: post #364

lucumo wrote: post #351

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's just that demanding someone's attention without expending the effort to be interesting to them is quite rude as well. If someone's constantly on their phone while you're speaking to them, your conversation is clearly not very interesting to them so you should do better. I find demanding someone's attention more rude than not giving attention that's requested. Someone's attention is theirs to give, not something…

Well I did not demand their attention so I suppose that is a different thing, in fact I did attempt to engage them with questions but after a few "Huh What?" when they look up from their phones, then a one word answer and back to their phones...I just ate my meal in silence. I agree no one wants to listen to someone drone on and on, or brag about themselves but that is not what was going on in this specific case. The…

Oh, I'm sorry. I didn't mean to imply anything about your specific situation or any other specific situation. There's absolutely room in the world for both situations to happen. (And I certainly didn't mean to imply you were boring. You've held my attention long enough :-) )

It's just that I see the sentiment repeated online rather a lot, while whenever I see the situation crop up offline, it's usually someone zoning out of an uninteresting conversation. I felt that observation and viewpoint needed some representation online.

Re: Ask HN: Why is today's Internet experience so user hostile?

#372

Post by aloisdg » Tue, Jan 04, 2022, 9:34 AM UTC

factorialboy wrote: post #25

aloisdg wrote: post #21

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Agreed. Capitalism is fueled by greed.

It's human behavior. Unfortunately. What could we replace capitalism with? Won't underlying human behavior remain the same?

Human behavior tends to mutual aid if its doesnt have to live paycheck to paycheck. Something with less inquality. Something more cooperative perhaps?

Re: Ask HN: Why is today's Internet experience so user hostile?

#373

Post by Hnrobert42 » Tue, Jan 04, 2022, 12:08 PM UTC

srcreigh wrote: post #370

Hnrobert42 wrote: post #50

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Dark patterns in digital services are not just about greed. They give the US government greater power which translates to increased protection of its citizens. What?

https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=29718254

A link without any context isn’t a helpful response.

Re: Ask HN: Why is today's Internet experience so user hostile?

#374

Post by croes » Tue, Jan 04, 2022, 1:18 PM UTC

bayindirh wrote: post #368

croes wrote: post #236

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How many people use that "remaining 5%"? Most people I know still use spacebar to right aline the date in a word document.

For my case, if we're getting a Office document, it's almost guaranteed to break when opened with latest LibreOffice. We don't handle these files everyday, but it's a necessity. If the data inside a file can be transported with something FOSS, it's already carried with that software. So, in my case, at least; I'd rather do my research and create more GPL software rather than trying to convince established companies t…

>For my case, if we're getting a Office document, it's almost guaranteed to break when opened with latest LibreOffice. That even could happen in MS Office. MS needed several major versions until they fully followed their own Office Open XML standard.

Re: Ask HN: Why is today's Internet experience so user hostile?

#375

Post by richieb » Tue, Jan 04, 2022, 7:38 PM UTC

For one thing, why is the text of posting light grey on greyish background? It's almost unreadable on a phone.

Re: Ask HN: Why is today's Internet experience so user hostile?

#376

Post by cudgy » Tue, Jan 04, 2022, 9:14 PM UTC

Another reason is lack of creativity from smaller developers that copy the dark patterns that have become endemic of the larger websites like Amazon, Google, and AirBnb. Many smaller developers mistakenly look up to these “leaders” for guidance on how their software should work.

Re: Ask HN: Why is today's Internet experience so user hostile?

#377

Post by docsearls » Tue, Jan 04, 2022, 9:51 PM UTC

I think it's because we were never human here. Meaning we were never embodied.

Walk into a store or a house in the natural world, and people there know you're human, because you're embodied. We aren't online.

Here we are "users," "clients," "visitors," "the audience," "eyeballs" "data subjects" (GDPR) or "consumers" (CCPA). Entities embodied as servers are lords of their castles on the Web. We're just serfs, with no more rights or abilities than each of those grants separately.

The best we become instantiated (though only by implication human) is when we get "accounts" with server operators. Yet, with every account we add, we lose a little more of the agency that arises from autonomy and independence. We have measures of both those graces in the natural world, where we are embodied. But we don't here. And, as others in this thread point out, it is extremely easy to take boundless advantage of our structural vulnerabilities. And to normalize that in the extreme as well.

Of course the wizards among us can spin up personal servers, "own" (actually, rent) personal domains, and stuff like that; but the old client-server model is stacked against the world's muggles and only a bit less so against the wizards, since wizards also need their accounts with the networked world's alpha operators.

The best way to solve this, IMHO, is by developing business and technical solutions that can only come from our side, the human side. I list fourteen of those here https://customercommons.org/solutions/ .

Re: Ask HN: Why is today's Internet experience so user hostile?

#378

Post by hattori31 » Tue, Jan 04, 2022, 11:30 PM UTC

wruza wrote: post #261

Ensorceled wrote: post #102

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Users tolerating such bullshit is the reason why it exists and keeps on existing. This is an intensely user hostile view point, ironically enough. "The dark patterns being foisted upon the average user are their own fault, they deserve what they get" In fact, I think this attitude is how the developers and product managers responsible for this stuff sleep at night, "these people deserve this for their moral failing…

The root of the issue is they never complain, even when cornered into a shitty bank or govt app. Everything else just grows from this fact. They are used to commercials, spam, telemarketers, scammers, pre-checked boxes when the law allows to uncheck it and demand the same service. There is no revolt. If you don’t take responsibility for change, it doesn’t happen.

Complain how? In older times we could just mail the company now the support page has stupid chat bots that do nothing, and you have to fight with it or the damn page for 5 mins before you can send a mail. Most of the times I just give up. And if we complain for every site takes too much time. And it will boil down to "sure sir, but thata how it is"

Re: Ask HN: Why is today's Internet experience so user hostile?

#379

Post by srcreigh » Wed, Jan 05, 2022, 8:11 AM UTC

Hnrobert42 wrote: post #373

srcreigh wrote: post #370

Earlier quoted context omitted.

https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=29718254

A link without any context isn’t a helpful response.

The link is evidence that other people also see US tech as American global espionage system.

Do you have any thoughts about it?

Re: Ask HN: Why is today's Internet experience so user hostile?

#380

Post by robertlagrant » Wed, Jan 05, 2022, 10:14 AM UTC

brightstep wrote: post #193

noduerme wrote: post #182

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Parent's point is that you'd be a lot less likely complain about even worse data collection if you lived in China, and it was done in the name of the "people" - but you wouldn't be quieter because you really believed it was for the people. You'd be quieter because you were scared to say things about the System. You're lucky to live in a System that pays you to have a public opinion about it.

The alternatives being worse doesn't make a critique of a system less valid. Yes, it's good that we have free political speech and yes, it's true that capitalism's incentives drive decisions like invasive data collection.

All incentives are the same in that regard - wanting to have and know more things. That's nothing to do with capitalism. Capitalism lives within that desire, as does socialism.

Capitalism and socialism (excluding others for time) only differ on who gets to allocate resources. Do independent parties allocate their resources based on mutual agreements, within a legal framework run by a central authority? Or does a central authority allocate resources, within a legal framework run by that central authority?