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ASML reports fire at its Berlin factory

reuters.com

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Re: ASML reports fire at its Berlin factory

#281

Post by dang »

Shadonototra wrote: post #98
lmilcin wrote: post #6

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You seem to have some knowledge that we do not. Care to share your source of information?

Quoted post unavailable.

It's against the site guidelines to post like this. We've already warned you, and if you keep breaking the rules, we're going to end up having to ban you.

If you'd please review https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html and stick to the rules when posting here, we'd appreciate it. Note this one:

"Please don't post insinuations about astroturfing, shilling, brigading, foreign agents and the like. It degrades discussion and is usually mistaken. If you're worried about abuse, email hn@ycombinator.com and we'll look at the data."

Re: ASML reports fire at its Berlin factory

#282

Post by dang »

chx wrote: post #79
kragen wrote: post #55

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This smear could not be further from the truth. China has singlehandedly (to the extent that a billion people can be considered a "single hand") dropped the cost of solar energy from five times as expensive as fossil fuels to half as expensive as fossil fuels in only ten years, an innovation that will probably stop global warming and usher in an unprecedented age of energy abundance starting about eight years from no…

Quoted post unavailable.

You broke the site guidelines egregiously with this comment. We ban accounts that do that.

If you'd please review https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html and stick to the rules when posting here, we'd appreciate it. Note this one:

"Please don't post insinuations about astroturfing, shilling, brigading, foreign agents and the like. It degrades discussion and is usually mistaken. If you're worried about abuse, email hn@ycombinator.com and we'll look at the data."

We have that rule for extremely good reasons. If you want more explanation, here is many years' worth: https://hn.algolia.com/?sort=byDate&dateRange=all&type=comme.... Either way, please don't post like that again.

Re: ASML reports fire at its Berlin factory

#283

Post by skrebbel »

varispeed wrote: post #227
CookiesNCream23 wrote: post #180

I work in the industry and have worked in a fab. Here is some insight. We are taught that fabs are not treated as factories but as hazardous chemical storage plants. On top of that, we work with high pressure and high power systems. Fires have accounted for the most damage to fabs over the years; however, this situation is different. The site is not a fab, it is a ASML manufacturing plant. This plant does not produce…

After working at ASML would you get enough knowledge to start competing company? Or is the job so protected with NDAs that basically you wouldn't be able to translate or use the gained knowledge anywhere else? I am thinking, for example, when you realise the working conditions are not great or you are paid not enough, do you have any leverage? If ASML has no competition, then do you have any negotiating power?

There's non-competes but they're easily circumvented. I know of multiple people who started a sole proprietorship (ie contracting) and took a competing company (for some distant value of "competing") as their customer. Dutch labour law prevents most non-competes in practice.

I once freelanced at a startup that was building a machine that could compete with ASML's 30 year old machines. Those are still being used, resold and refurbished so one of those refurbishing companies (made up of ex ASMLers ofc) thought they could build new ones from scratch.

It worked (after a series of bankruptcies, restarts and acquisitions I might add - it was a rocky ride but not for technical reasons). That doesn't mean they will ever be able to catch up to ASML, or even intend to, but it's clearly possible for ex ASML people plus some young new engineers to build a lithography product. I bet with a few extra years patience you can do without the ex ASML people altogether.

This means that if eg China wants to have their own chip industry, and the US keeps preventing ASML from selling their best machines to China like they currently do, all the Chinese government has to do is encourage a few dozen lithography startups to happen, aimed initially at the low-end of the market. Add some protectionism (eg import tariffs on any chips that could be made by Chinese machines), wait a few decades, and done. I'm pretty sure it'll happen.

Re: ASML reports fire at its Berlin factory

#284

Post by cromka »

tinus_hn wrote: post #214
cromka wrote: post #207

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Is this in any particular way specific to The Netherlands? Sounds like it could happen anywhere?

It’s like the Prohibition era. The Netherlands have always tried to control fireworks much more rigidly than the surrounding countries, and now have prohibited fireworks completely under the guise of COVID. There is still a big market for it though. The obvious and predictable result is that the stockpiles don’t end up in a bunker but in peoples homes and consist of ever stronger and more dangerous items.

I see. Sounds like the plan backfired /s

Re: ASML reports fire at its Berlin factory

#285

Post by Animats »

seafoam wrote: post #261
Animats wrote: post #104

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Stanford had that. In the 1980s, Stanford built a state of the art fab on campus. And, through 2014, they had a 1980s state of the art fab.

What happened in 2014 ?

The Center for Integrated Systems pivoted to something called SystemX.

Re: ASML reports fire at its Berlin factory

#286

Post by KarlKemp »

harha wrote: post #54
jbverschoor wrote: post #21

Tech giants seem to have fire problems in Germany lately

What's the deal with moving to Berlin anyway? Infrastructure is pretty bad (try getting good internet or mobile reception, even as a business), as are labor and tax laws and the motivation of most employees is pretty low as a result (high security, limited mobility - need tenure to retain the security, low impact of actions - both under and over performing), additionally, everything is a bureaucratic nightmare, bette…

People aren't motivated by existential dread, at least not in creative jobs. The time of the fax has passed except for specific industries like healthcare and shipping, with the latter being notorious for using fax worldwide.

Employees at startups are easily 50% international. Someone willing to move to a different country has already shown more initiative and willingness to take risks and forgo the comfort of safety than the vast majority of people will ever do.

Re: ASML reports fire at its Berlin factory

#287

Post by pasabagi »

whatshisface wrote: post #255
pasabagi wrote: post #175

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Would it be the dark ages, though? I don't think it would be so terrible if we were all thrown back to PDP 11's or something, and there's no way it could ever be anywhere near that drastic. Hardware advances are nice, but the main innovations in computers have been infrastructural and social (the internet, email, open source, etc).

Don't forget about engine control computers, which are necessary for much of today's ICE efficiency gains.

Or, as the volkswagen scandal showed us, necessary for most of today's ICE's to pretend to be more efficient than they are by cheating emissions tests :).

Re: ASML reports fire at its Berlin factory

#288

Post by KarlKemp »

cromka wrote: post #284
tinus_hn wrote: post #214

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It’s like the Prohibition era. The Netherlands have always tried to control fireworks much more rigidly than the surrounding countries, and now have prohibited fireworks completely under the guise of COVID. There is still a big market for it though. The obvious and predictable result is that the stockpiles don’t end up in a bunker but in peoples homes and consist of ever stronger and more dangerous items.

I see. Sounds like the plan backfired /s

The intend was to reduce pressure on hospitals. That worked very well, with emergency room visits dropping 85 % compared to the year before, even more to pre-Covid New Year's Eves

Re: ASML reports fire at its Berlin factory

#289

Post by nebula8804 »

skrebbel wrote: post #279
collegeburner wrote: post #246

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This definitely doesn't match how I heard some software is done there: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=18463181

FWIW (i wrote that comment, also btw woa I'm super flattered to be quoted like that!): note that it's based on my, by now, pretty dated inside knowledge (~6y). They might've improved since (though judging by the sibling comments, maybe not).

I find it funny how the other commenter talked about how ASML could be disrupted by a competitor with better software practices. Completely laughable in todays chip shortage world.

I have had to learn this lesson the hard way when I assumed that Disney+ was going to flop when a lot of the senior engineering talent supposedly quit during the ramp up. What I didn't realize was that technology isn't as important as other things when you have a moat. Disney+ ended up relatively successful despite their technological hiccups. Same reality with ASML.

Re: ASML reports fire at its Berlin factory

#290

Post by nebula8804 »

r00fus wrote: post #272
Heliosmaster wrote: post #266

Earlier quoted context omitted.

keep in mind that machines like those are so complex that you don't simply buy them and install them. It's more like getting custom-made artisanal goods: each machine has a "father/mother" from its 'conception' til delivery who treats it as their (work) baby. Then a special plane will fly the machine and a team of dedicated engineers will spend weeks in your fab doing install / validation. The process is long and com…

It almost sounds like there should be states funding creation of a competitor simply to prevent the "fire impacts entire global industry" kind of news we're seeing today.

Well China is trying are they not? We will probably have to wait another 5-15 years to see the results...
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