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Nobody Pronounces the 'B' in 'Debt'

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251–260 of 338 posts

Re: Nobody Pronounces the 'B' in 'Debt'

#251

Oh this is the place where I can finally rant about _aesthetic_, the favourite word for most music/art/movie content creators I've watched in the 2020s, one everybody mispronounces and reads it as "asthetic" which annoys me to no end, because it is totally WRONG. And I keep hearing it daily, which is maddening. "Ae" is supposed to be one sound, like the vowel sound in "egg". The "a" is silent. I'm terribly afraid eve…

The correct way to pronounce something is always the way people do it. Language is defined by its speakers, not some committee or your preference.

Re: Nobody Pronounces the 'B' in 'Debt'

#252
post #49
post #3

Nobody in some nobodyland. Majority in the world would. It is safer to pronounce English as it written and just modify on well-known cases. Especially when two non-natives speak two each other. "Fancy" pronunciation can make things impossible, as only native speakers can understand where you are aiming at.

This is true to the bone. It's hilarious how many native speakers ignore this - even knowingly. It also goes beyond pronunciation into local slang and choice of vocabulary. In my experience "Native Speakers" often don't understand each other correctly (of course random ones, from different parts of world) - plenty of tiny misunderstandings due to the tempo of conversation. 5 random non-native speakers may have all ba…

> Non native speakers tend to get to the point more easily.

Interesting. I've noticed this, but have always attributed it to being a product of the British education that most of them received, being from Commonwealth countries.

> It's easier for themselves.

It's also much more clear. I tend to code switch into a more precise dialect when in a professional setting. The words I choose are often a bit more specific, but they're not unnecessarily "fancy" - they're just precisely what I'm trying to convey. I also speak slightly more slowly, with a more regular cadence, and consciously enunciate sounds (especially consonants) that I would otherwise abbreviate or omit entirely.

> Then don't try to dazzle you with funny wordplay and jokes that make no sense outside of speakers country.

I actually enjoy hearing those, but not while communicating a complex and/or abstract idea.

> It takes a lot of skill for a native speaker to be pleasant for foreigners.

This makes me wonder if I'm more or less difficult to understand than my peers for non-native speakers. Given that I live somewhere with a strong and distinctive accent, I would assume I'm more difficult to understand but that it's partially offset by my "professional voice".

The next time I speak with a colleague who is not a native English speaker, I'll ask them.

Re: Nobody Pronounces the 'B' in 'Debt'

#253

I may be crazy but I feel the ghostly presence of the “b”. For instance say “let let let let det” Now say “let let let let debt” Train a neural net on a few million samples of native English speakers reading these, and I think it could predict which prompt was read with >50% accuracy, even if each person was only shown one of the prompts.

> I may be crazy but I feel the ghostly presence of the “b”.

> Train a neural net on a few million samples of native English speakers reading these, and I think it could predict which prompt was read with >50% accuracy

One of the first things you learn in linguistics is that people's judgments about their own pronunciation are not reliable at all.

Re: Nobody Pronounces the 'B' in 'Debt'

#255
post #221

I still remember when I met a guy from Germany about 20 years ago...he spoke decent-enough English and I don't remember the context but somehow he started going on about the word "debt" and refused to believe the b was silent lol. In my opinion, "colonel" is even more confusing.

Wonder if he'd get a hart attack if you mentioned lieutenant as well.

Re: Nobody Pronounces the 'B' in 'Debt'

#256
post #3

Nobody in some nobodyland. Majority in the world would. It is safer to pronounce English as it written and just modify on well-known cases. Especially when two non-natives speak two each other. "Fancy" pronunciation can make things impossible, as only native speakers can understand where you are aiming at.

> It is safer to pronounce English as it written and just modify on well-known cases. Especially when two non-natives speak two each other. "Fancy" pronunciation can make things impossible, as only native speakers can understand where you are aiming at. Heh, this seems like the right thing to do when you think about it. Why should we keep track of some odd rules that only exist for historical reasons and aren't reall…

The problem isn’t the pronunciation. The problem is the spelling. Just need to get rid of all those pesky silent letters.

Re: Nobody Pronounces the 'B' in 'Debt'

#257
post #173

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> It's happened again and again with other words. "often" (older pronunciation: "offen"), "Anthony" (older pronunciation: "Antony") and "tortoise" (older pronunciation: "tortuss") are examples where the spelling pronunciation still hasn't totally won out. What are the "new" pronunciations for these? I'm a native speaker and I'd pronounce them the way you've indicated is "older".

You must be a posh RP speaker ;-) The way I hear them here in the North (of England), from most common folks, is Of-Ten, An-th-ony (with TH from "the"), and Tor-Toy-s. The T in "often" can be very short but it's definitely there.

> An-th-ony (with TH from "the")

Out of curiosity, is it definitely the voiced TH from "the," rather than the unvoiced TH from "thing?"

In the US the spelling pronunciation of Anthony is by far the more common (at least in my experience), but I've never heard it with a voiced TH.

Re: Nobody Pronounces the 'B' in 'Debt'

#258
post #157

I may be crazy but I feel the ghostly presence of the “b”. For instance say “let let let let det” Now say “let let let let debt” Train a neural net on a few million samples of native English speakers reading these, and I think it could predict which prompt was read with >50% accuracy, even if each person was only shown one of the prompts.

It's very interesting people think so, and I've heard similar statements about the in "scent". Yet linguistically, it really doesn't hold up. Words are built up from phonemes, which undergo some alterations depending on their order and the context to become the phones (as in sounds, not telephones) which are actually pronounced. But this allophonic variation is never dependent on the spelling of the word†, and the wo…

Yet linguistically, it really doesn't hold up. Words are built up from phonemes, which undergo some alterations depending on their order and the context to become the phones (as in sounds, not telephones) which are actually pronounced. But this allophonic variation is never dependent on the spelling of the word†, and the word "debt" is in all dictionaries transcribed with three phonemes: /dɛt/. The set of phonemes in the English language is also limited and the consonants clearly demarcated, a hypothetical ghostly "b" phoneme would not go unnoticed.

You describe the popular version of a linguistic theory, not established fact. There are facts corroborating it, and also some observations (such as the multitude of variations in basically unwritten dialects) that speak against this simple view (that I for one really want to be true, having invested years of my life into, but that doesn't make it any more valid).

An Achilles' heel of your argument is that it is generally very, very hard for people using a more-or-less phonetic writing system (such as an alphabet or a syllabary) to discuss speech sounds without referring to orthography, without mixing up speech sounds and written signs, and without hallucinating subtle differences (or their absence) in speech perception where there are differences (or the lack thereof) in the spelling.

As an example, take final obstruent devoicing as observed in Standard German[1]. The majority of the phonetic / phonological literature of the 20th c seems to leave no doubt that a final systematic -d- (as in 'Rad' [ra:t] (wheel; bicycle)) is phonetically indistinguishable from final systematic -t- (as in 'Rat' [ra:t] (counsel)). Yet there is a minority view (held among others by a well-respected language teacher of mine) who insist there is a minor auditory difference. We can test against that by presenting material that has been so cut and sliced as to erase the meaningful context of utterances and then ask people to vote for the one (Rad) or the other (Rat) based solely on auditory perception. This however is complicated by the fact that not all people speak pure standard high German (in fact—nobody does, of course), so what people do get to hear will always be a blend of dozens or thousands different dialects, idiolects, and mannerisms. Listeners are also faced with the task to accept that, depending on the speaker, 'Rad' may get uttered as [rat] (with a short [a], somewhat similar to En. 'rut'), and while the same may happen to 'Rat', that pronunciation seems to have a slightly differing geographical distribution than the short version of 'Rad'. So when I'm from Bremen, I will probably say 'Ich fahr mit dem [rat] zum [ra:t]haus' (I take the bike to city hall), whereas someone from Westphalia or Wuppertal may prefer short vowels in both words. The effect might well be that the listener's 'phonemes'—more generally, their internal systematic understanding of speech sounds—are much more tied to probabilistic aspects and the history of their personal experience than the clean, orderly phonological models presented in textbooks may lead one to believe.[2][3]

[1] https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Auslautverhärtung [2] see doubts about the reality of the phoneme expressed by BE Vidos Handbuch romanische Sprachwissenschaft https://www.amazon.de/Handbuch-romanischen-Sprachwissenschaf... [3] https://languagelog.ldc.upenn.edu/nll/?p=47503 and a number of other threads on the reality of linguistic models

Re: Nobody Pronounces the 'B' in 'Debt'

#259

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Ozarkian here - we have names where additional syllables are added when we're annoyed with the person. It's "Karen" in normal conversation, but if she brought storebought cookies to the potluck it's "Kar-in-nuh", with the emphasis on the last syllanble. In my head, these are called "spite syllables" :)

If that doesn't work, you can always whip out the "Bless your heart".

Or "special" - "You didn't miss Karen's special cookies, did ya?"

That would usually be coupled with a very veiled reference to how she put in the minimum possible effort while indirectly insulting her entire bloodline: "Oh, don't you just feel for Karen? I don't know how she gets anything done with those kids of hers."

Alternatively, if the speaker wants to embarrass her in front of someone with a higher social standing; "Karen, these cookies are just the best thing ever! What do you put in these to make them so good?"

Re: Nobody Pronounces the 'B' in 'Debt'

#260

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"Sean" (properly, Seán) is actually an Irish Gaelic name. Irish, like English, features very many non-phonetic spellings. If the guy deliberately made you feel embarrassed for mispronouncing his name, he was just being a dick.

Actually Irish is very phonetic, more like say German than English. The rules are just different because a roman alphabet was used for a non-romanic language. "S" is always pronounced as "sh" when surrounded by slender vowels. Many consonants in Irish have two different sounds for a slender and a broad pronunciation.

English has some of that. C or G are usually soft before E or I and hard before A O or U.
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