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ASML reports fire at its Berlin factory

reuters.com

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Re: ASML reports fire at its Berlin factory

#271

Post by microtherion »

jokteur wrote: post #220
CookiesNCream23 wrote: post #180

I work in the industry and have worked in a fab. Here is some insight. We are taught that fabs are not treated as factories but as hazardous chemical storage plants. On top of that, we work with high pressure and high power systems. Fires have accounted for the most damage to fabs over the years; however, this situation is different. The site is not a fab, it is a ASML manufacturing plant. This plant does not produce…

I am currently beginning a PhD in physics (mathematical modeling, simulation on HPC) in Switzerland, and I am afraid that after my PhD, I won't find a job that really pleases me. These last years, I came under the impression that you currently can only find ML driven software engineering jobs (I am exagerating of course), and having done quite a bit of ML and software engineering, I now know that I don't want my futu…

Synopsys still has an office in Switzerland, to the best of my knowledge, and this sounds like it might be along the line of work you're interested in.

Re: ASML reports fire at its Berlin factory

#272

Post by r00fus »

Heliosmaster wrote: post #266
throwoutway wrote: post #254

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That sounds like a train wreck waiting to happen. I’m amazed that hasn’t put an egg on their face. Are their customers complaining about issues? And how can the risk managers know so much about potential regressions? Are they a panel of former engineers?! So many questions

keep in mind that machines like those are so complex that you don't simply buy them and install them. It's more like getting custom-made artisanal goods: each machine has a "father/mother" from its 'conception' til delivery who treats it as their (work) baby. Then a special plane will fly the machine and a team of dedicated engineers will spend weeks in your fab doing install / validation. The process is long and com…

It almost sounds like there should be states funding creation of a competitor simply to prevent the "fire impacts entire global industry" kind of news we're seeing today.

Re: ASML reports fire at its Berlin factory

#273

Post by Shadonototra »

lmilcin wrote: post #225
Shadonototra wrote: post #98

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Quoted post unavailable.

> he is right, it is the same story as OVH's recent fires No, he is not, and you are not right either. Spewing baseless accusations, creating facts out of thin air, is best way to get flagged on HN. Yes, some countries want to slow EU. No, that does not give you right to claim it is a sabotage when you have absolutely zero knowledge about it.

No post body was provided.

Re: ASML reports fire at its Berlin factory

#274

Post by testtesttestte »

varispeed wrote: post #227
CookiesNCream23 wrote: post #180

I work in the industry and have worked in a fab. Here is some insight. We are taught that fabs are not treated as factories but as hazardous chemical storage plants. On top of that, we work with high pressure and high power systems. Fires have accounted for the most damage to fabs over the years; however, this situation is different. The site is not a fab, it is a ASML manufacturing plant. This plant does not produce…

After working at ASML would you get enough knowledge to start competing company? Or is the job so protected with NDAs that basically you wouldn't be able to translate or use the gained knowledge anywhere else? I am thinking, for example, when you realise the working conditions are not great or you are paid not enough, do you have any leverage? If ASML has no competition, then do you have any negotiating power?

Some people tried it and got sued for patent infringement (ASML vs XTAL)[1]. ASML patents all EUV-related technology, so you'd have to come up with a brand new way of generating EUV plasma at high energies at constant rate. Even ASML had to buy an American company Cymer to get a working prototype. Then, because EUV radiation doesn't pass through air or standard lenses, you'd have to come up with another optic column system. If you want to go 5nm and below, you need anamorphic lenses/mirrors with almost atomic precision [2]. ASML gets these columns and lenses/mirrors from Zeiss, but probably has patents on their practical application.

The sheer size of the supply chain you need to create to make a working machine is massive. It's one of the reasons why ASML got ahead of the Japanese companies that tried to do everything in-house.[3][4]

It took 17+ years and €6 billion in R&D to get EUV working [5] (as such EUV litography became feasible in the 90s), so ASML's leading position on the market is justified. They have to recoup all the costs, so they will make sure to keep the market leadership through all legal means.

My guess is that if someone would come up with a more efficient EUV plasma generation or better optic systems, ASML would acquire the company and take over the technology.

Regarding the negotiating power, some companies like GlobalFoundries couldn't afford ASML's EUV machines, so they parked their EUV plans [6]. It's only big players like TSMC, Samsung and Intel that can afford this tech and all these companies know their worth and prices. ASML needs money to pay for the R&D and can't afford to lose it's biggest customers that are also buying their non-bleeding edge technologies (DUV litography).

I don't know the business side of things, but it's definitely going to be interesting to see what happens with competition in the EUV litography in the upcoming 10+ years.

EUV litography and silicon-based chips have their physical limits, so there might be other ways to continue improvements.[7]

[1] https://www.reuters.com/article/us-asml-holding-xtal-court-i...

[2] https://semiengineering.com/extending-euv-to-2nm-and-beyond/

[3] https://ideas.repec.org/p/eti/dpaper/05007.html

[4] https://youtu.be/SB8qIO6Ti_M?t=673

[5] https://www.asml.com/en/products/euv-lithography-systems

[6] https://www.anandtech.com/show/13277/globalfoundries-stops-a...

[7] https://semiengineering.com/making-chips-at-3nm-and-beyond/

Re: ASML reports fire at its Berlin factory

#275

Post by ojl »

collegeburner wrote: post #246
CookiesNCream23 wrote: post #180

I work in the industry and have worked in a fab. Here is some insight. We are taught that fabs are not treated as factories but as hazardous chemical storage plants. On top of that, we work with high pressure and high power systems. Fires have accounted for the most damage to fabs over the years; however, this situation is different. The site is not a fab, it is a ASML manufacturing plant. This plant does not produce…

This definitely doesn't match how I heard some software is done there: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=18463181

Software wasn’t mentioned in the comment though. It might be an awesome place to work at within those other disciplines which were mentioned.

Re: ASML reports fire at its Berlin factory

#276

Post by sharken »

r00fus wrote: post #272
Heliosmaster wrote: post #266

Earlier quoted context omitted.

keep in mind that machines like those are so complex that you don't simply buy them and install them. It's more like getting custom-made artisanal goods: each machine has a "father/mother" from its 'conception' til delivery who treats it as their (work) baby. Then a special plane will fly the machine and a team of dedicated engineers will spend weeks in your fab doing install / validation. The process is long and com…

It almost sounds like there should be states funding creation of a competitor simply to prevent the "fire impacts entire global industry" kind of news we're seeing today.

ASML has 16 locations around the globe so while it will have some impact, it could be a lot worse.

https://www.asml.com/en/company/about-asml/locations

Re: ASML reports fire at its Berlin factory

#277

Post by unethical_ban »

MathCodeLove wrote: post #174
metabagel wrote: post #134

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It’s not possible for a single average consumer to support domestic industry on their narrow shoulders. It typically takes some sort of collective action, often in the form of government trade policy.

The collective is nothing but many individuals. While I'm not accusing you specifically of this, I feel as if these sort of responses are often used as a way to shirk the responsibility of taking any action for the causes one claims to support. It's a fair point to make, but doesn't mean that OP shouldn't be doing their part by buying domestically if they really hate that some products get manufactured in another cou…

To some extent I get it, but that ignores the very real and obvious psychological issue of "going it alone" and feeling as if you are not impacting anything while paying the price. See: The United States and others trying to push a climate-change agenda while India and China say "fuck you" and keep dumping into rivers and ramping up coal production. If we "do our part" all we do is lose out while others destroy our economy and planet.

At the "buy all American", I disagree with your point that I could possibly source everything in my house from the United States even if I had a million dollars - and if I could, though it would make me feel better, it doesn't change the macro fact.

Re: ASML reports fire at its Berlin factory

#278

Post by brohee »

dogsgobork wrote: post #86
Ygg2 wrote: post #44

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Doesn't litography use some pretty wild chemicals. Like Chlorine Trifloride? Thing that when burned emits hydrochloric acid and hydrofluoric acid. Aka thing that burns ashes. Again. I assume making those machines is pretty crazy as well.

For anyone interested in how terrible Chlorine trifluoride is, it's on perpetual HN favorite Derek Lowe's list of "Things I won't work with" https://www.science.org/content/blog-post/sand-won-t-save-yo...

It's to be noted that since the article Ignition! has been reprinted, and is indeed an awesome book.

Re: ASML reports fire at its Berlin factory

#279

Post by skrebbel »

collegeburner wrote: post #246
CookiesNCream23 wrote: post #180

I work in the industry and have worked in a fab. Here is some insight. We are taught that fabs are not treated as factories but as hazardous chemical storage plants. On top of that, we work with high pressure and high power systems. Fires have accounted for the most damage to fabs over the years; however, this situation is different. The site is not a fab, it is a ASML manufacturing plant. This plant does not produce…

This definitely doesn't match how I heard some software is done there: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=18463181

FWIW (i wrote that comment, also btw woa I'm super flattered to be quoted like that!): note that it's based on my, by now, pretty dated inside knowledge (~6y). They might've improved since (though judging by the sibling comments, maybe not).

Re: ASML reports fire at its Berlin factory

#280

Post by CookiesNCream23 »

collegeburner wrote: post #246
CookiesNCream23 wrote: post #180

I work in the industry and have worked in a fab. Here is some insight. We are taught that fabs are not treated as factories but as hazardous chemical storage plants. On top of that, we work with high pressure and high power systems. Fires have accounted for the most damage to fabs over the years; however, this situation is different. The site is not a fab, it is a ASML manufacturing plant. This plant does not produce…

This definitely doesn't match how I heard some software is done there: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=18463181

Definitely two types of software here. Everything about that post is spot on.

Internal software is messy. Testing is also messy. Lots of things need to be automated. End of the day, it’s a bunch of hardware people.

The exciting stuff are the physics simulations. Modeling how lens aberrations affect the light that passes through and how to correct for that.

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