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Elizabeth Holmes found guilty

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Re: Elizabeth Holmes found guilty

#721

Post by lucideer »

irthomasthomas wrote: post #701

On the subject of lying tech CEOs, will Musk ever pay for his sins? "I feel very confident predicting 1 million autonomous robo-taxis for Tesla next year" - E. Musk 2019 Did he ever atone for this, or is he still kicking the can down the road? Edit: I know, I know... It's not a crime until it is. Let a jury decide if Musk lied, or if he genuinely believed that his company was capable of producing 1 million robotaxis…

Of all the things to call Musk out on (especially in comments on a case about misconduct in the field of medicine), making bad company sales forecasts is hardly it.

Re: Elizabeth Holmes found guilty

#723

Post by TheRealDunkirk »

bambax wrote: post #662
seehafer wrote: post #187

Earlier quoted context omitted.

From former AUSA, and current white-collar defense attorney Ken White: "She faces a max of 65 years (3x20 + 1x5). And it's not at all clear she'll do less than 20." Apparently the sentences will not necessarily be served concurrently. https://twitter.com/Popehat/status/1478170494130003976?s=20

I hate Holmes as much as anyone [0], but life in prison (65 years when you're 37 = out when you're 102) sounds unreasonably harsh. She's not convicted of actually, physically harming anyone, esp. patients (which doesn't mean she didn't -- but she wasn't found guilty of that); she's convicted of lying to investors. That's obviously bad, and should carry some form of punishment. Maybe 5 years? But life?? That's insane.…

You don't understand. In our system of capitalism, fleecing investors under false pretenses is the gravest of sins. She must be punished accordingly, in order to make a legal statement to other potential capital thieves.

Re: Elizabeth Holmes found guilty

#724

Post by joshmlewis »

emptyfile wrote: post #716
simonsarris wrote: post #704

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Being wrong about a prediction, even being very wrong, is not the same as lying or defrauding. By 2019 pretty much everyone knows that Musk is a person who makes extremely ambitious predictions, projections, timelines, etc, and tries to meet them. Almost anyone in that situation will have a low hit rate. There's no sin to pay for, this is how he chooses to work and structure his businesses. Investors tend to be very…

What about making a prediction while being, as you're saying it, 95% sure its bullshit? Is that not lying? When does it become lying, when you're 100% sure you're not saying the truth?

I think he makes these predictions based on the absolute best case scenario he can think of. It's hard to prove he had fraudulent intent unless you had communication from him that showed he knew what he was saying was impossible.

Re: Elizabeth Holmes found guilty

#725

Post by snek_case »

ethbr0 wrote: post #720
evancoop wrote: post #715

The relevant detail, in my mind, is not whether Holmes deserves punishment, or even how much. The relevant detail is how the judge ultimately sentences Holmes, and more importantly, on what basis the judge selects the upper or lower range of possible sentencing outcomes. Considering that BS, stretching of capabilities, and so on are commonplace in the startup world, the point isn't whether Holmes crossed the line (sh…

The worst possible outcome of this, and I hope clarification presses this, would be "You can't lie and bend the truth in biology startups, but can everywhere else." Which would effectively siphon money away from an already hard but critical space. The jury found Holmes guilty. But she should have been found just as guilty if she'd been running an adtech startup or a crypto company.

I don't think it's just about biotech startups. I think the obvious distinction here is that her behavior put lives at risk fairly directly. Theranos was administering blood tests to a large number of people in a beta program. These tests were incomplete and inaccurate. Said tests were used to monitor the status/recurrence of cancers and other conditions like diabetes.

If you similarly put people's lives or safety in danger with an AI startup somehow (with enough of a lack of ethics, this might be possible), you too could be eligible to win an all expenses paid vacation.

Re: Elizabeth Holmes found guilty

#726

Post by nathanyz »

evancoop wrote: post #715

The relevant detail, in my mind, is not whether Holmes deserves punishment, or even how much. The relevant detail is how the judge ultimately sentences Holmes, and more importantly, on what basis the judge selects the upper or lower range of possible sentencing outcomes. Considering that BS, stretching of capabilities, and so on are commonplace in the startup world, the point isn't whether Holmes crossed the line (sh…

Lying in both startups and even later stage companies has been way too accepted in the recent past. Granted investors should be doing better due diligence in general, but the amount of acceptable deception going on is mind blowing when you get a chance to see behind the curtain.

My hope is that a precedent is set that you can boast and talk about the future, but claiming something to be true which is patently false should be fraud. I believe that is already the definition of the word fraud, but would be better for all if the legal system enforces that.

Re: Elizabeth Holmes found guilty

#727

Post by JCharante »

emptyfile wrote: post #716
simonsarris wrote: post #704

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Being wrong about a prediction, even being very wrong, is not the same as lying or defrauding. By 2019 pretty much everyone knows that Musk is a person who makes extremely ambitious predictions, projections, timelines, etc, and tries to meet them. Almost anyone in that situation will have a low hit rate. There's no sin to pay for, this is how he chooses to work and structure his businesses. Investors tend to be very…

What about making a prediction while being, as you're saying it, 95% sure its bullshit? Is that not lying? When does it become lying, when you're 100% sure you're not saying the truth?

It becomes lying when it can be proved to be false. Stating that your company currently provides 200 blood analysis when it does not is very easy to disprove given insider documentation. Saying that by next year you'll be able to support the 1000 most common blood analysis is not lying, it's a somewhat of a promise but of course projects go behind schedule all the time.

There's a difference between saying I weigh less than 90kg and I will weigh less than 90kg by next year.

Re: Elizabeth Holmes found guilty

#728

Post by hnarayanan »

rrdharan wrote: post #400
ramesh31 wrote: post #297

If she gets anything less than life in prison, it will effectively answer the question of "how many years of prison would you do for a billion dollars?". I'm guessing an absolute max of 5 in a minimum security white collar facility.

She didn’t personally clear or keep anything close to a billion dollars. It’s true that she was able to live a somewhat lavish, albeit clearly stressful, lifestyle for a while though…

Like a dozen years!!

Re: Elizabeth Holmes found guilty

#729

Post by colesantiago »

saberience wrote: post #558
manquer wrote: post #320

Earlier quoted context omitted.

While it is unusual for the med tech industry, isnt it what startups do all the time ? it is not that surprising to me . It is not pure SaaS companies either, in the EV/self-driving space we have outright frauds like Nikola rolled a truck downhill to make the video and were public at $8 Billion. Others like Rivian/ tuSimple are definitely are not going to meet the projections in sales and plans they have published. T…

At least Tesla actually delivered shit though and had actual real working electric cars. I don't think any investors are regretting investing in Tesla based on Elon's promises...

Do the 1 million robotaxis exist today as promised? I thought Elon said they due by the end of 2020? Can you tell me where they are?

Re: Elizabeth Holmes found guilty

#730

Post by thoms_a »

Hmmm, I wonder if any Goldman Sachs execs did time for all of the proven fraud they committed, which led to a stock market crash?

Nope. They just got bailed out by the Fed, and given bonuses. This is how you know which profession runs the American empire. It sure as hell isn't tech CEOs.

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