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Elizabeth Holmes found guilty

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Re: Elizabeth Holmes found guilty

#361

Earlier quoted context omitted.

so if she only dealt with california investors, this trial wouldn't be happening?

Then she could be prosecuted by the State of California, for violation of state fraud laws.

Basically everything is interstate commerce. See Wickard v Filburn. It's why growing your own pot or making your own machine gun earns you federal jail time, even if they never enter commerce or leave the state. Basically whether commerce leaves state lines means nothing in terms of whether there is interstate commerce; even growing your own crops to feed to your own animals is considered interstate commerce.

Whether a wire left the state means dick to whether the federal government has constitutional authority over it, per supreme court.

Re: Elizabeth Holmes found guilty

#362
post #155

What always amazed me is they had nothing… nothing that could do the thing they claimed. To the point they used competitors machines to produce results. Pretty amazing.

While it is unusual for the med tech industry, isnt it what startups do all the time ? it is not that surprising to me . It is not pure SaaS companies either, in the EV/self-driving space we have outright frauds like Nikola rolled a truck downhill to make the video and were public at $8 Billion. Others like Rivian/ tuSimple are definitely are not going to meet the projections in sales and plans they have published. T…

> isnt it what startups do all the time ?

All the time? No.

Re: Elizabeth Holmes found guilty

#363

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Hopefully she'll get more, SV could use a good example. Otherwise it signals that wantrepeneurs can keep doing it with minimal repercussions.

To me the justice system already failed. It supposed to protect small people, society, vulnerable entities. There are stories how Holmes test were indirect result of someone death because they rely on those. Meanwhile the only real sticking crimes are the one she commit against Betsy Davos (dirty corrupted rabbit hole warning if you Google her name). Obviously Bets placed few phonecalls. It it wasn't some VIP, she wo…

Come on. You make it sound like it was only Betsy Devos she defrauded. There’s a long list of other ultra-rich people, including Oracle guy Larry Ellison, Walton Family (Walmart owners), and Rupert Murdoch.

Not fair to frame her sentence as Betsy pulling strings, even when I’m no fan of that woman for obvious reasons.

Re: Elizabeth Holmes found guilty

#364

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They had a fully functional lab though, it just wasn't using Theranos' devices. This is what they did to Wallgreens, they sold them on the idea that they would have theranos machines in-store, but instead what they did was do IV blood draws (calling it a comparison check) .. and then would just process the samples the same way as everyone else using standard equipment. People were getting good results because Therano…

I believe they also reverse engineered a lot of the third party machines, in an attempt to make them work the way they wanted to. That's... that's bad.

But not illegal, except under very specific circumstances.

Re: Elizabeth Holmes found guilty

#365

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Most of those were likely never truly distributed specifically to employees in the first place. Reprint or print on demand swag is generally obvious with the white background. Look for real photos, especially in people’s homes. In my totally arbitrary set of rules the item must have been available or given to employees only. Here’s one I’d love to get my hands on if not for the price: https://www.ebay.com/itm/2550149…

As someone who used to work there and has one of those water bottles and likely knows the person selling that one on ebay (based on the username) I find this hilarious...

So… how much you want for it?

Re: Elizabeth Holmes found guilty

#366
post #347

Someone mentioned that Holmes will likely get a relatively light sentence because she is an attractive white woman. I've read there is good evidence that black people get harsher sentences than white people and men get harsher sentences than women, other factors being equal. I suspect there is also evidence attractive people get lighter sentences than ugly people. The current system seems like a clear-cut violation o…

Probably wise to avoid postulating until she is actually sentenced.

Re: Elizabeth Holmes found guilty

#367
post #284

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> What Elizabeth did wasn't far from what many many many founders do I'm not sure this is true. She told a lot of egregious lies to investors while trying to get money from them. She repeated those lies in the press and to anyone who questioned it. And I don't mean a lie like lying that your product is more effective than it is. I mean she told prospective investors about huge contracts with the defense department th…

That's not what she said at all. At least not from the near daily coverage and transcripts I watched[1][2][3][4] She said it was being trialed by the military, in reality what had happened was Mattis said he would be able to introduce the technology to the military. This type of "abstraction" is in very many pitches I've read over the years. [1] https://www.youtube.com/c/LawyerYouKnow [2] https://www.youtube.com/chan…

You are completely uninformed on the details of the case. She absolutely did tell these lies to investors.

Re: Elizabeth Holmes found guilty

#368
post #347

Someone mentioned that Holmes will likely get a relatively light sentence because she is an attractive white woman. I've read there is good evidence that black people get harsher sentences than white people and men get harsher sentences than women, other factors being equal. I suspect there is also evidence attractive people get lighter sentences than ugly people. The current system seems like a clear-cut violation o…

Because there's a sixth as well as a fourteenth amendment

Re: Elizabeth Holmes found guilty

#369

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They had a fully functional lab though, it just wasn't using Theranos' devices. This is what they did to Wallgreens, they sold them on the idea that they would have theranos machines in-store, but instead what they did was do IV blood draws (calling it a comparison check) .. and then would just process the samples the same way as everyone else using standard equipment. People were getting good results because Therano…

I believe they also reverse engineered a lot of the third party machines, in an attempt to make them work the way they wanted to. That's... that's bad.

I think that's entirely fine - both for patients and investors (Siemens might be a bit Irate, but I don't know if I would put that in the "Bad" category). The issue would be if they informed their investors that tests were being done on Theranos technology, but were actually using siemens technology. With regards to the patients - all they should care about is accuracy of test results - whether Theranos was doing it with Theranos tech, Siemens Tech, Reverse Engineered Siemens Tech + dilution of the blood to get enough volume is mostly irrelevant to a patient - they just want to get the highest quality information possible, regardless of the route taken.

Re: Elizabeth Holmes found guilty

#370
post #347

Someone mentioned that Holmes will likely get a relatively light sentence because she is an attractive white woman. I've read there is good evidence that black people get harsher sentences than white people and men get harsher sentences than women, other factors being equal. I suspect there is also evidence attractive people get lighter sentences than ugly people. The current system seems like a clear-cut violation o…

First Equal Protection clause from the 14th Amendment applies to only states and not federally. [1]

Second, It is extremely hard to prove that discrimination happens while all other things are equal . Rarely all other things are also equal as there are many strongly correlated factors with race[2] that can adversely impact conviction, for example being black on average would be poorer and would more have a court appointed attorney who is looking to close a case(given his load) rather than win for each defendant and push a defendant to plea out than go to trial etc. Is this directly because he is black ?

Race, age and gender are objectively measurable [3], "attractiveness" is lot more subjective to eyes of the beholder. How do you even come up with a scale for legal purpose of measuring bias like this ?

U.S. follows trial by jury, by definition that means the jury of peers are to take the law and your entire specific example and act with full freedom as they see fit ( even nullify laws if they wish to do so). In a such a system there will be biases, because people are inherently biased. While there are some efforts to reduce this, like no all white juries against black defendants etc, unless there is fundamentally different system biases can not be eliminated.

The biggest determining factor is Money. Richer you are, less likely to have trouble with law, and get away with a lot. White, young, female and attractive correlates to being rich. Sadly that is how the world works.

[1] There are similar protections in the 5th Amendment Due Process Clauses that can be applied at a federal level.

[2] Similar examples to other factors as well

[3] Race and Gender can have some ambiguity but in most cases it is clear

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