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Hacking a VW Golf Power Steering ECU

blog.willemmelching.nl

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Re: Hacking a VW Golf Power Steering ECU

#131

Post by C19is20 »

olivermarks wrote: post #94
t0mas88 wrote: post #79

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So far electric vehicles are getting worse not better, because they're less regulated on things like OBD access. And manufactures see them as a chance to make an always connected car that phones home. Tesla was first but everyone else is copying them now.

My concern is that all vehicles are becoming more and more surveilled, transmitting hugely personal data. Once level 4 centralized control is possible I predict pre permissioned requested travel will quickly follow. We urgently need a new generation of very basic transportation devices. The 3rd world relies on Toyo HiLuxes etc which are still easy to keep running. LandRover used to be all over the third world because…

Gdpr could be your friend.

Re: Hacking a VW Golf Power Steering ECU

#132

Post by userbinator »

olivermarks wrote: post #94
t0mas88 wrote: post #79

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So far electric vehicles are getting worse not better, because they're less regulated on things like OBD access. And manufactures see them as a chance to make an always connected car that phones home. Tesla was first but everyone else is copying them now.

My concern is that all vehicles are becoming more and more surveilled, transmitting hugely personal data. Once level 4 centralized control is possible I predict pre permissioned requested travel will quickly follow. We urgently need a new generation of very basic transportation devices. The 3rd world relies on Toyo HiLuxes etc which are still easy to keep running. LandRover used to be all over the third world because…

Now you know why mid-century and slightly newer vehicles are so common in the world of custom cars and performance tuning. Simple and relatively comfortable to work on, with a large aftermarket of parts.

Re: Hacking a VW Golf Power Steering ECU

#133

Post by [deleted] »

chrisseaton wrote: post #130
monocasa wrote: post #126

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's not quite what I'm seeing, instead that what I believe you're talking about (Morse code over open air with a Diana cipher backed by one time pads) were pretty much exclusively used by special forces in Vietnam. The issues with key distribution inherent in one time pads otherwise got in the way of cross team cooperation too much since each pad would only exist in two places (the spec ops team, and a major base…

> That's not quite what I'm seeing ... it wasn't actually deployed in the general case I'm was literally trained in the British variant of technique I'm describing. There's a wikipedia article about it, and it's referenced from this cryptography wiki's one-time-pad page. Other countries used similar systems. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/BATCO https://cryptography.fandom.com/wiki/One-time_pad

[deleted]

Re: Hacking a VW Golf Power Steering ECU

#134

Post by captainmuon »

formerly_proven wrote: post #27

> The electronics seemed to be fabricated using bare dies attached to some substrate, probably to lower cost and improve reliability at higher temperatures. The board is made up of two parts, a low-power part with the CPU and CAN transceivers, and some high-power part with 6 MOSFETs forming a three phase H-Bridge. > https://blog.willemmelching.nl/images/vw/IMG_3181.jpg It doesn't really look cheap to me (large machin…

I'm really surprized this is reliable (of course they know what they are doing). Maybe because all the wirebonds to the dies are encased in epoxy (?) and the other bonds are so thick. Even then I would be worried they would snap off or lift their pads.

I wasn't directly involved but I still have nightmares about wirebonding. For a large partice physics experiment, we bonded electronics to silicon (wafer) sensors. Those small bonds would start oscillating and break as soon as there was any noise with their resonance frequency. It took cooling and heating cycles also pretty badly. In the end they sorted out all problems somehow, but the association "wirebond = delicate" stuck with me.

Re: Hacking a VW Golf Power Steering ECU

#135

Post by londons_explore »

phkahler wrote: post #95

>> Only try this on an actual car if you know what you’re doing. Even though only two very small patches are made to the model specific calibration values, making changes to your EPS might have unintended consequences. The author has no idea what he's doing, or more specifically what hazards might be lurking right under his nose. I worked in EPS for 6 years and it's all really cool stuff right up until you download c…

I have a totally stock EPS that will just apply random full torque left or right if the battery voltage drops below ~10 volts. One would imagine that's a scenario they tested for, but apparently not! It happens very easily on my car when all the electrics are turned on for a few hours while driving with low revs, like driving on a cold dark day on a 40mph road.

The first time I did it, my thumb was dislocated because it was inside the wheel! Didn't realise quite how powerful power steering systems are!

Now I have tape over the heated seats button with a warning to only use them or the rear defroster, not both.

Fun fact: The power steering uses 170 Amps when turning the wheel fast! Of course the voltage drops!

Re: Hacking a VW Golf Power Steering ECU

#136

Post by wkearney99 »

throwaway0a5e wrote: post #33
marcodiego wrote: post #11

Power Steering ECU... this things determines how the driving wheel makes the car turn. Safety issues must be considered.

The guy actually doing the modding and putting his butt in the seat has far more skin in the game than anyone who's second guessing him here.

shame the people he might hit and kill as a result of "the game" don't get a choice.

Re: Hacking a VW Golf Power Steering ECU

#137

Post by Infernal »

londons_explore wrote: post #135
phkahler wrote: post #95

>> Only try this on an actual car if you know what you’re doing. Even though only two very small patches are made to the model specific calibration values, making changes to your EPS might have unintended consequences. The author has no idea what he's doing, or more specifically what hazards might be lurking right under his nose. I worked in EPS for 6 years and it's all really cool stuff right up until you download c…

I have a totally stock EPS that will just apply random full torque left or right if the battery voltage drops below ~10 volts. One would imagine that's a scenario they tested for, but apparently not! It happens very easily on my car when all the electrics are turned on for a few hours while driving with low revs, like driving on a cold dark day on a 40mph road. The first time I did it, my thumb was dislocated because…

Mind sharing year/make/model of car? That's crazy.

Re: Hacking a VW Golf Power Steering ECU

#138

Post by wkearney99 »

throwaway0a5e wrote: post #107
progbits wrote: post #69

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Well, except you know... every pedestrian (and possibly driver) in his neighborhood. I'm being half serious - this seems harmless enough, but where do you draw the line? I'm all for the fun of reverse engineering but maybe keep that shit off public roads.

I couldn't care less. People hacking up things are a rounding error compared to the rest of the motoring public. If your vehicle is capable of meeting the performance expectations of everyone else I don't care what you drive. If your horse and buggy, ebike conversion, etc. can do highway speed and get there within the distance of the merge lane then feel free to ride that crap on the interstate. Likewise I don't see…

ah yes, the casual arrogance of treating other people's lives as just 'rounding errors'.

The only fortunate part, I suppose, is the kind of personality disorder that thinks/acts that way is likewise a rounding error.

Re: Hacking a VW Golf Power Steering ECU

#139

Post by terr-dav »

unbanned wrote: post #56
formerly_proven wrote: post #27

> The electronics seemed to be fabricated using bare dies attached to some substrate, probably to lower cost and improve reliability at higher temperatures. The board is made up of two parts, a low-power part with the CPU and CAN transceivers, and some high-power part with 6 MOSFETs forming a three phase H-Bridge. > https://blog.willemmelching.nl/images/vw/IMG_3181.jpg It doesn't really look cheap to me (large machin…

Ferrari used this method for their ECUs in the 360 to reduce risk of damage from vibration and heat.

Ah, so they're designed to be on fire.

Re: Hacking a VW Golf Power Steering ECU

#140

Post by garaetjjte »

mrtksn wrote: post #105
formerly_proven wrote: post #27

> The electronics seemed to be fabricated using bare dies attached to some substrate, probably to lower cost and improve reliability at higher temperatures. The board is made up of two parts, a low-power part with the CPU and CAN transceivers, and some high-power part with 6 MOSFETs forming a three phase H-Bridge. > https://blog.willemmelching.nl/images/vw/IMG_3181.jpg It doesn't really look cheap to me (large machin…

I agree but if that was in the world of consumer electronic it would have been frowned for repairability.

Yeah, if some power transistor fails these things are nightmare to repair, eg. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=133qU9sMatA
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